Novik on Fanfic

Author Naomi Novik got a terrific write-up in the New York Times today. She's had enormous success with her first book HIS MAJESTY'S DRAGON and her husband Charles Ardai runs Hard Case Crime, another enormous success. This is a couple on a major winning streak in the publishing business.  Novik and I were guests on an NPR radio show about fanfiction a year or two ago.  We were on opposite sides of the debate...our opinions on the subject are very far apart. I was not at my best on the air, though, or in my posts about the show here afterwards. But that said, I was struck by an aside in the article:

Around 1994 Ms. Novik began writing fan fiction, stories based on the characters of other writers. She called it “embarrassing, terrible early work” that could not be published — thankfully, she said — because it would be tantamount to copyright infringement on other authors’ characters.

Either the reporter is mis-characterizing her views or Novik has significantly changed her very liberal attitudes on the subject since becoming an author herself.

Comments

[Whaledawg]

I think you're misreading that Lee.

I think Mrs. Novik said she couldn't publish because it would legally be copyright infringement, not because she had a moral conviction it was copyright infringement.

[Jonquil]

Novik has said that the reporter mischaracterized her views.

[Mel]

I follow her blog on Livejournal. Thank god, she hasn't changed her views about fanfiction.

[Mark A. York]

If that's the case so did I. Since Lee is generally correct on these topics I'll take that company. It was a quote. As a certified journalist myself That must have been what she said otherwise it would have meant "fanfiction is great and legal!" She viewed it as practice until the real work began. Fanfiction will always get you nothing until one leaves it for their own creations. Thats the take home lesson for the students among us.

She said,

"Okay, so, I do have to put one small correction on record here (for anyone who has not read more than three entries back in my lj and doesn't already know this about me) and say hey, yes, my 1994 fanfic was indeed terrible crap and it is embarrassing in the way that all juvenalia is embarrassing, but that was the stuff I wrote twelve years ago; I am very proud of my more recent fanfic and love writing it (a little too much, sadly, when I have pressing deadlines to procrastinate from)."

and I quote her official LJ here,

http://naominovik.livejournal.com/

kete

[kete]

Oh, and Lee, you actually said,

"Her arrogance and stupidity is mind-boggling."

in this post

http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2005/06/novik_chimes_in.html#comments

Lovely, to see you back-pedaling now that she's definitely more successful than you! ;-)

kete

[David J. Montgomery]

That quote that Kete cites doesn't address the key topic -- whether or not Novik thinks fanfic is a copyright violation. So unless Novik explains more elsewhere, it doesn't seem that she's denying the quote in the NY Times.

While it is certainly possible that the Times could misquote someone as egregiously as some have claimed, it's pretty damn unlikely.

[kete]

Don't start nitpicking, David, of course she doesn't think it's copyright violation. If she did she wouldn't write it and she has repeatedly stated her position on it on her blog as well as on the radio show Lee mentions above.

I can't access the NYT article any more, but it said basically that her fanfic could not be published because it would infringe on copyright and I have yet to see a fanfic writer who negates that.

Fanfic writers do not publish. They share with their friends and readers for free - something pro writers certainly don't do.

kete

http://naominovik.livejournal.com/#item27324
June 10 2006
"....I love fanfic and am delighted that people are writing it about the Temeraire series. I can't read fanfic written about my own work because of the potential legal issues, but you can find communities and other interested lj'ers by searching interests for "temeraire". "

[lord bannister]

Let's see kete:

Novik: the first blush of success

Goldberg: 20plus years creating network tv shows.

I'm gonna say Novik has a way to go on the success scale. And she is still mind boggingly stupid...a shoe that you might want to try on, Kete.

[Lee Goldberg]

Kete,

I'm not back-pedaling at all. I stand by the substance of everything I said. What I regret are phrases like "her arrogance and stupidity is mindboggling." I should have attacked her opinions, not her personally. That was childish (And, for one thing, it showed MY stupidity, because the sentence should have read "her arrogance and stupidity are mindboggling.")

Lee

"Lovely, to see you back-pedaling now that she's definitely more successful than you! ;-)"

Um, how do you figure she more successful that him? She's sold three books to her publisher and the movie rights to Peter Jackson. That's terrific. But Lee has written dozens of books, written and produced dozens of TV series, and continues to do so. I don't know him, but I suspect he has made millions of dollars over the course of his career. Novik may do the same, but she hasn't yet.

ummm...not sure how this has become a pissing contest as to who is more succesful... Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms. Novik had changed her ideas about fanfic once she herself had a "property" worth protecting; Ms. Novik's statement of June 10 suggests otherwise...

ummm...not sure how this has become a pissing contest as to who is more succesful... Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms. Novik had changed her ideas about fanfic once she herself had a "property" worth protecting; Ms. Novik's statement of June 10 suggests otherwise...

[Jonquil]

They share with their friends and readers for free - something pro writers certainly don't do.

False. The late John M. Ford's friends cherish the chapbooks he sent them at Christmas, to give just one example. Many writers now put short stories and other lagniappe up on their Websites.

[Mark A. York]

"Fanfic writers do not publish" Really? What does posting this sort of playacting online amount to? That's legally "fixed in a medium with marks, and available to the public, which for legal purposes is enough. I agree with David M. she isn't refuting anything with that quote. She made a big score, no question.

I read part of an excerpt and aside from the interest in sailing to Istanbul, transporting Dragon eggs is plain ridiculous to me personally. I couldn't read it.

[Andre Seton]

But what about the Novik quote from June 10?
That quote confirms that Novik is okay ("delighted" in fact) with people doing fanfic based on her own work. This is a contradiction of Lee's suggestion, that Novik changed her mind on fanfic once she'd become a published author.

[kete]

""Fanfic writers do not publish" Really? What does posting this sort of playacting online amount to? That's legally "fixed in a medium with marks, and available to the public, which for legal purposes is enough."

Oh, Mark, does that mean I'm a published writer now, because my fanfic is online?

kete

[kete]

"What I regret are phrases like "her arrogance and stupidity is mindboggling."

Of course you do. Because wouldn't you just love to be published by Hard Case Crime. Which is unlikely to happen, when you insult the wife of one of the co-owners.

kete

[kete]

"Um, how do you figure she more successful that him? She's sold three books to her publisher and the movie rights to Peter Jackson. That's terrific. But Lee has written dozens of books, written and produced dozens of TV series, and continues to do so."

Well, I suppose her sales are even now higher than anything he has ever written. And will increase with every book that's coming out (she's sold three more already). And while he has produced some geriatric TV shows, her work has been bought by a cult-director for the big screen....

kete

[kete]

"They share with their friends and readers for free - something pro writers certainly don't do. -
False. The late John M. Ford's friends cherish the chapbooks he sent them at Christmas, to give just one example. Many writers now put short stories and other lagniappe up on their Websites."

Ain't you clever. But sending friends stories for x-mas and posting teasers online, hoping for more sales, isn't inherently the same as posting free material. Its free availability is one of the defining qualities of fan made fiction, while its mercenary potential is one of the qualities of pro-fiction.

kete

[Nick Mamatas]

. Because wouldn't you just love to be published by Hard Case Crime. Which is unlikely to happen, when you insult the wife of one of the co-owners.

Oddly enough, publishing doesn't always work like the politics of junior high school.

[Mark A. York]

"Oh, Mark, does that mean I'm a published writer now, because my fanfic is online?"

Legally yes. Commercially published in hard copy no, unless you print it and hand it out.

[Andre Seton]

okay, this exchange has now gone very far afield from Lee Goldberg's initial post, to no apparent end...
Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms Novik changed her point of view about fanfic since she became a published author. But Ms Novik's statement that she's "delighted" with people doing fanfic based on her work suggests the opposite.
I'm still curious to know what Lee Goldberg makes of her June 10 posting - this was after the second book had been published.

[Russell Davis]

It's all well and good for Ms. Novik to be "delighted" at fanfic based on her work - yet she won't read it due to legal issues. In short, she knows it's a copyright violation - and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection.

Kete, I don't know what you do for a living, but it's clear based on your posts that you don't truly understand that professional writers actually, you know, WORK FOR A LIVING. They have this compelling need to eat, pay bills, etc., and they do so by selling what they write. It's not the oldest profession, but it's close. In ancient cultures, the storyteller was often held in the highest esteem, his needs - food, shelter, etc. - taken care of by others. Same principle.

I've read Ms. Novik's work - it's quite good and she'll only get better. She's had some extraordinary success and anytime a writer does that well, it's good news. That said, her attitude toward fanfic is almost inexplicable to me. All that success and she clearly doesn't care about it enough to protect her copyrights - which is, btw, what she SELLS to the publisher(s).

Beyond that, coming to Lee's blog to be an asshole and get some of yours back because he doesn't like fanfic is a little like putting lipstick on a pig.

Cheers,
Russell Davis

[Russell Davis]

A brief point of clarification: she sells rights to her publisher, not the copyright itself. But the two are tied together.

Cheers,
Russell Davis

[Mark A. York]

I think the difference is she wrote aomething salable and original. That's what real writers do.

[Keith]

"publishing doesn't always work like the politics of junior high school."--Mamatas

My experience is that most things do.

(Hi, Nick.)

I think it says a lot about Lee Goldberg that he allows people to come on his blog and call him an asshole. It says something about his character and his lack of ego. He doesn't mind if people have views different than his own, even though he has strong opinions. And he acknowledges his mistakes (like calling Novik stupid) but doesn't go back and try to erase what he did. He owns up to it instead. I don't know him, but I like him already. Kete's character comes out loud and clear, too. I don't know Kete, but I know I don't like her.

[David J. Montgomery]

I know that it wouldn't be much fun that way...but if you don't like what Lee has to say, couldn't you just not visit his website? It's not like he shows up on your doorstep to make fun of you.

Although that would be entertaining. It could be a new reality show!

[Dene]

Russell Davis: I've read Ms. Novik's work - it's quite good and she'll only get better. She's had some extraordinary success and anytime a writer does that well, it's good news. That said, her attitude toward fanfic is almost inexplicable to me.

It's clear that it's inexplicable to you (and others!), but since her attitude isn't completely unique and other very successful authors share it maybe there's something not completely insane to it? I would guess that Ms Novick sees fanfic as something that encourages sales of her books and a natural reader reaction to a story that grabs them. I've never wanted to write fanfic on paper but I have essentially written it in my head or made up stories verbally with friends since I was a kid. She seems to respond to books the same way, so fanfic to her isn't an attempt to steal.

I don't find authors who oppose fanfic inexplicable (I am a published author but have never written anything that inspired fanfic and have written several tie-ins) but I have found that a lot of their arguments against it seem to cross the line of what a writer can reasonably demand.

It seems very often the trouble with these discussions is both sides assuming that people start out seeing things the same way when they don't--and also that it gets sidetracked into nebulous arguments of who's a "real artist" that get silly.

[telesilla]

Dude, your obsession with fanfic and fanfic writers is starting to border on creepy. I think by now everyone knows where you stand and these repeated attacks just serve to make people wonder why it matters to you so damn much.

Seriously, man, you might want to think about moving on.

[lovemesomereallifeslash]

Telesilla,

Instead of wasting precious moments of your life detailing why other people's obsession are reprehensible, you might instead choose to spend some hard time on your own writing...you can't find dialog this hot in most Viggo Mortensen & Orlando Bloom slash:
http://telesilla.livejournal.com/486935.html#cutid1

"Oh fuck," Viggo mutters, grinding up against Orlando. "Want you now," he adds, and it's almost scary how true that is; he wants Orlando so incredibly fiercely now that he's almost shaking with it.

"Want to fuck you," Orlando breathes, fumbling with Viggo's fly until he can shove the jeans down. He cups Viggo's cock in his hand and gives it a rough stroke, groaning, and then pulls away to strip himself down.

"Yeah," Viggo says, hoping like hell that Orlando has some stuff with him, because he really wants to be fucked. "Here," he says, turning to face the wall. "Now."

Orlando digs into a pocket and finds a condom. That's got to go on first because once he's done fucking about with lube he won't have the patience to try to fit the condom on. Then he's slicking his fingers, rubbing them together and shoving two into Viggo sharply, pressing up against his back.

"Reminded me of us that first night," he breathes into Viggo's ear. "All heat and smoke and beer."

The talent...it burns.

[Ey-up]

I've got a question, appropos of Russell Davis's post. As he points out, respect for the storyteller is a traditional part of culture. If you look back a hundred years or so, there's the popular Romantic idea of the writer as touched by the divine, the special individual, and so on. At many, many points in history, good writers are among the most praised people in the world. Most people nowadays don't consider writers touched by the divine, but they do respect them. I remember a friend of mine, a very talented writer, living on a university corridor next to some engineering and science grads, who asked her in a reverent whisper, 'Do you ... WRITE in your room?' Generally speaking, writers are pretty much admired.

Except, it seems, in the hard-core fan communities. It's odd, as these are the people who are most dependent on their work, but somehow, you get fans seeing writers as DJs who take requests, as Lee previously put it, or as recalcitrant employees who ought to take the darn money, shut up and be grateful, or as parasites who demand money and are morally inferior to amateurs, or as abusive parents who refuse to humour their readers out of spite, or as tinpot dictators who have the nerve to expect fans to respect their wishes. There's a definite tone among the harder core of anger, outrage and contempt.

Where does this come from? I don't think most genres treat their favourite writers this way, even nowadays. And with things like science fiction and fantasy, which struggle continually to get the respect they deserve, you'd think it would benefit the community if charity began at home. After all, what outsider will respect a writer who seems to be despised by their own fans? What is it? Do all the slurs of non-genre critics just render people touchy, even towards their favourite authors, or are people buying in to the fallacy that genre authors are just hacks, or what's the reason? I'd really like to know.

[kete]

"respect for the storyteller is a traditional part of culture. If you look back a hundred years or so, there's the popular Romantic idea of the writer as touched by the divine," said Ey-up.

"Were _Beyond the Beyond_ a _Star Trek_ fanfic -- and that's not such an impossible conceit as it would seem -- the fan posting it
to alt.startrek.creative would thoughtfully label it NC-17. It's pornographic, scatological, ultraviolent, and generally
over-the-top...While he happily descends into the gutter about such things as what a lunatic sex-obsessed fan calls his penis ("superwarp plasma pleasure warhead," in case you're wondering), or what a nauseating female fan uses for personal pleasure (a homemade vibrator in the shape of Mr. Snork's elephantine nose)...I will also note that despite the author's decision to throw in sex and gratuitous violence on a level usually to be found in those dull anime series about virginal Japanese schoolgirls being repeatedly raped by armies of demons whose phalluses are powerful enough to do to Tokyo what Godzilla only dreamed of, Goldberg writes *lousy* sex
scenes...when Shari Covina kills
Conrad Stipe by smothering him with her huge breasts (the better
to inherit his merchandising rights). In the throes of death,
Stipe bites off a nipple (to give you an idea of the depths of
lousiness to which Goldberg can sink, she *enjoys* it)"

Lee Goldberg: Touched by the Divine.

http://www.geocities.com/~fossilfreak/books/btb.htm

With compliments, kete

[Dene]

"Except, it seems, in the hard-core fan communities. It's odd, as these are the people who are most dependent on their work, but somehow, you get fans seeing writers as DJs who take requests, as Lee previously put it, or as recalcitrant employees who ought to take the darn money, shut up and be grateful, or as parasites who demand money and are morally inferior to amateurs, or as abusive parents who refuse to humour their readers out of spite, or as tinpot dictators who have the nerve to expect fans to respect their wishes. There's a definite tone among the harder core of anger, outrage and contempt."

So I think we can agree that today it's pretty obvious that very few people consider authors deities. There are people who dislike the author's work trashing their books. There are people indifferent to the author's work who might also trash them casually. And then there are hard-core fans who fall in love with some aspect of the work and when they think it's going the wrong way care that much more and so complain about it that much more. Some of them are assholes as well. But is that really surprising? (Though some are fans of the author themselves and consider anything the author does to be great.)

Not all fan criticism is valid--you can be a fan of something and have no good sense of story at all. I think we're all ultimately glad that fans don't run how things go. But nor does being a fan/viewer/reader mean your criticisms are invalid either. Sometimes they're right on the money.

So the bottom line is: audiences of anything are made up of people, and people are always going to share their own opinions. This to me just seems like the risk anyone takes when they write a good story. If you draw people into your world enough that the world has a life of its own, there's going to be more pressure. You're kind of playing with fire engaging peoples' imaginations.

"Touched by the Divine"

Does the divine only ever touch pro writers? Or does it touch fan writers, too?

How does te divine know whether someone is a pro or a fan?

Does the divine know and care about such mundane things as copyright?

How does the divine make sure the writer uses the touch in the appropriate form?

When the divine touched Naomi Novik to make her write Temeraire, what would it have done if she had decided to write some filthy SGA porn instead? Would the divine have taken its touch back?

Questions over questions...

[Lee Goldberg]

Yikes. I haven't looked at this thread in days and it's amazing how the conversation has devolved.

I don't much like my blog being used to call me an asshole, nor do I like it being used to call other people assholes (unless I am the one doing it, of course).

Ordinarily, though, I tend to err on the side of not meddling in the discussion to encourage a free exchange of views. But this is getting out-of-hand (as it is in the Publish America discussion).

Kete is right -- it's wrong to slur her using Hitler comments and I will delete them. I find that as distasteful as she does.

But Kete, the others are right, too. You are every bit as abusive to others. And I will delete any of your comments that cross the line.

I am also going to take a stronger stand on people calling me an asshole... or threatening me. This is my blog, after all. My home. You are welcome to disagree with me here, and to do so loudly, but I won't tolerate any more personal attacks.

Those who continue will be banned from posting.

Lee

[Euan]

"But sending friends stories for x-mas and posting teasers online, hoping for more sales, isn't inherently the same as posting free material."

Uh. Giving people things for free isn't the same as giving people things for free?

Well, okay. Obvious really, once you point it out. Good thing you have those ESP powers, otherwise who knows what we might think?

"Its free availability is one of the defining qualities of fan made fiction, while its mercenary potential is one of the qualities of pro-fiction."

Professional = "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain"

So what you're saying is that one of the qualities of pro-fiction is that people do it for money? Well, uh, yeah. That's why they call it 'professional', because, um, you get paid for doing it.

And regardless of Novik's opinions about the worth of fanfic, the fact that she won't read it for fear of legal issues says all that you need to know, IMO.

[Ami Smith]

"It's all well and good for Ms. Novik to be "delighted" at fanfic based on her work - yet she won't read it due to legal issues. In short, she knows it's a copyright violation - and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection."

Uh. No. Most writers, television and book alike tend not to look at other unsolicited works, especially in their own universes because there have been incidents of those people then turning and sueing the author for stealing THEIR idea.

It's far more about covering her own ass than worrying about copyright I'm sure.

[Ey-up]

Hello,

I'm not saying I personally think writers are touched by the divine, I'm just saying that traditionally there's a lot of kudos attached. That doesn't mean people don't criticise their work; I was more wondering at the way fans consider themselves entitled to boss authors about, which is something different. I was wondering why; I don't think saying that some people are assholes really explains anything. I was wandering a bit off-topic, because something in Russell's post caught my attention; hope nobody minds. If so, please feel free to ignore me.

And I'd like to agree with Lee about civility; if we play nice, we'll all have a better time. To which end - have a nice day, everyone. :-)

[Russell Davis]

Ami Smith said: "Uh. No. Most writers, television and book alike tend not to look at other unsolicited works, especially in their own universes because there have been incidents of those people then turning and sueing the author for stealing THEIR idea.
It's far more about covering her own ass than worrying about copyright I'm sure."

Uh. Yeah. What you say is another element of it, yes, but a failure to defend your copyright can legally result in your losing certain protections under the law.

R.

[Dene]

"I'm not saying I personally think writers are touched by the divine, I'm just saying that traditionally there's a lot of kudos attached. That doesn't mean people don't criticise their work; I was more wondering at the way fans consider themselves entitled to boss authors about, which is something different. I was wondering why; I don't think saying that some people are assholes really explains anything."

I'm not sure if this was directed to my response, but I'll explain. When people's imaginations are fired up by a story, it means a lot to them. So they react more passionately when they feel the story's being handled badly. Sometimes they don't know the difference between what they want to happen and handling the story badly--for instance, they want X/Y to wind up together, and instead it's Y/Z who wind up together. Other times a fan can express valid criticism of the way a story is being handled, and people being people both of these kinds of things sometimes get expressed in a rude way. It's easy to sit outside a story and say how much better you could write it--think of how sports fans complain about how professional athletes perform. Same thing. It's much harder to actually create a story and tell it.

It just seems like it's a double-edged sword. If people get involved enough in the story that they feel the story has a life outside of you as the author, there's more pressure on you as an author to serve that story. There can be two fans both expressing the same valid criticism, but only one will come across sounding rude and self-entitled--and I don't think this is a recent thing at all. It's just more obvious now because you can always see it on the Internet, and fans and creators have been brought so much closer together.

That's the thing about being an artist, particularly an actor or a writer--many times what people like about you simply isn't you, it's your creation. As a writer of fiction especially you're creating fictional people for people to interact with in their imagination. You're often most visible as an author in your weakest writing moments, imo.

[Keith]

Russell Davis said:

"a failure to defend your copyright can legally result in your losing certain protections under the law."

I know that's true for trademarks, but how does it apply to copyright?

[Mark A. York]

To my knowledge copyright can't be diluted as with a trademark. A lawyer verification? CEP?

[Ey-up]

Thanks for the post, Dene. But still - the sports-fan analogy is very interesting and probably apt, but ... why are readers acting like sports fans? After all, the way a game goes is up for grabs, and a lot has to do with chance, whereas the way a story goes is preplanned and dictated by the wishes of a single individual. That's what really puzzles me: authors are the ones who actually know that it's not like a sports game, but when they say that, hardcore fans don't seem to believe them. They just get madder. It's like refusing to believe there's anything other than good sportsmanship and the laws of chance at play in a pro wrestling match, and getting furious with a wrestler who tries to explain that it's all a circus - then insisting that, as a long-term wrestling fan, you know more about it than he does.

[Ami Smith]

"To my knowledge copyright can't be diluted as with a trademark. A lawyer verification? CEP?"

Also it's fully possible to be in complete control of your copyright (as I too beleive that can't be diluted, unlike trademark) and be sued for plagiarism. That is, stealing a plot idea that isn't theirs.

Which has happened before (Marion Zimmer Bradley) and resulted in loss of money because the book in question was never published.

That is what I was refering to when I mentioned covering all your bases (was more crass then, appologies) by not reading fanfiction. And why I beleive Naomi is against reading fanfic about her own works.

[Mark A. York]

That sounds about right but you can't steal a plot per se, but substantially similar expression of said work. Even though it isn't easy to prove even when it's obvious as Lew Perdue can attest.

[Ey-up]

That's an interesting point about being unable to steal a plot per se. Might that be one of copyright problems with writers reading fan fic? After all, if Jane Smith writes a story about a character of her own getting into a quarrel with his best friend that isn't resolved until there's a dramatic rescue, say, then if JK Rowling writes a similar story, Jane Smith is going to have a tough time suing her. If, on the other hand, Jane Smith writes the same story about Rowling's hero, then if Rowling writes the same tale, it's by its nature going to be closer to Smith's. Which Smith may take as grounds for a plagiarism case. By lifting characters from Rowling, she's created a link which goes further than the generic story.

Which is very unreasonable, of course. Personally I think there's a case to be made that it ought to be declared legally impossible to copyright fan fiction; it might solve a lot of problems. Pro-ficker people on this site: would you have a problem with that? If so, why?

[Ey-up]

Um - I meant 'pro' as in 'in favour of', not as in 'short for professional'. Just in case that was confusing.