Is Fanfic Legal?

Author John Scalzi has irked fanficcers by <gasp> saying that he believes fanfiction is illegal which, of course, it clearly is.

it's clear that some portion of fanficcers actually seems to believe that writing fanfic isn't actually copyright infringement, and that therefore it "exists in a gray area" or is actually not illegal via some interpretation of fair use. Some of this belief stems from the contention that there has not been (to the common knowledge) a copyright suit specifically dealing with fanfic, probably because a "Cease & Desist" letter is usually enough to cause the fanficcer to take down his/her fanfic so no court case is necessary. The thinking here seems to be that if a suit does not specifically address fanfic, then the legal status of fanfic is in fact indeterminate.

I can't help but think this is a bit of magical thinking, based on the idea that fanfic is in itself a legally special class of writing (possibly under the "we're doing this for fun" idea), which as far as I can see it's not. It's bound to the same injunctions and restrictions as any other piece of creative writing. Certainly US copyright law carves out protections for fair use, parody and criticism, and equally certainly some fanfic qualifies under a realistic reading of these protections. But I hazard to guess the vast majority of fanfic could not be shoehorned into these protections even under the most liberal of terms.

He backs up his assertion with a lengthy post that quotes an intellectual property attorney and the Chilling Effects Clearing House (a joint project of the Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, University of San Francisco, University of Maine, George Washington Schools of Law) on the subject.  What I found especially interesting was a letter sent by JK Rowling's attorneys to some fanficcers who were writing porno Harry Potter stories.

As you are aware, Ms. Rowling is the author of the Harry Potter books. Ms. Rowling therefore owns the copyright in the Harry Potter books. The sexually explicit content of the fan fiction available at www.restrictedsection.org, which is plainly based on characters and other elements of the fictional world created by Ms. Rowling in the Harry Potter books, is a matter of serious concern to our client. In addition, our client Warner Bros, which owns the film and merchandising rights to the children's series of Harry Potter books, is concerned to protect the integrity of its Harry Potter properties. For the avoidance of doubt, our clients make no complaint about innocent fan fiction written by genuine Harry Potter fans.

She's okay with fanfic but is ready to go after people who write sexually explicit material using her characters. That should serve as a warning to anyone who thinks that writing about Harry and Ron exploring the magical delights of anal sex is "fair use."

Comments

[Sam Barer]

I should be so lucky to have a problem with fans ripping off my ideas. I think the only thing for which my writing is used by my readers is to line birdcages across Western Washington.

On second thought...I keep seeing Road & Track and Automobile magazines featuring the same cars as my column just a few weeks after I run. Get my lawyer on the phone!

[Paul William Tenny]

http://bitch-what.blogspot.com/2006/08/fanfic-is-not-illegal.html
..also..
http://bitch-what.blogspot.com/2006/08/definitive-moment.html

Clear? Far, far from it.

[David J. Montgomery]

I would be more impressed by the arguments that FanFic is legal if anyone other than FanFic writers were making them.

I have yet to see any compelling argument, either legally- or ethically-based, that convinces me that FanFic is or should be legal and/or acceptable.

The doctrine of "But I enjoy doing it, so why shouldn't I be able to?" remains wholly unpersuasive.

This is obvious on the face of it to anyone who has ever created anything original to him or herself.

[Sandra Ruttan]

Not enough fanfic hate mail already this week, Lee? I could tell you my own fanfic horror story, but not on a blog...

[Paul William Tenny]

"I would be more impressed by the arguments that FanFic is legal if anyone other than FanFic writers were making them."

David, it's staring you right in the face.

[Mark A. York]

Concur with David M. These are the Remoras of the lit fringe.

[John Hudgens]

Man, this is all giving me flashbacks... I did a major research paper on Character Copyrights/Trademarks and how that relates to fan fiction for a Communications Law class about fifteen years ago... bottom line was fanfic had no legal leg - got an "A", as I recall... :)
some people are still making the same arguments for fanfic they did then, and they're still getting it wrong. I need to did through my archives and see if I can find that thing...

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

What keeps popping up in these threads it that no one seems to be able to keep copyright infringement, derivative writing and plagiarism straight in their heads. One is a legal issue and the other two are moral/ethical ones. Legality and ethics are not synonymous, especially when applied to intellectual property law. If that were true, we wouldn't have the infinitely expanding copyright and material would go back into the public domain in reasonable time (not reasonable as defined by Disney and the software industry).

Neither do people seem able to separate legality, morality and ethics. I'm not particularly interested in whether fanfiction is legal-in my opinion it probably is not, at least in the USA and in Europe, but then my only experience with copyright law is when I have to sign it away every time I submit something to a professional journal. But while legality may have been Mr. Goldberg's original point, what a number of people in this and the previous thread seem to be arguing about is whether it is moral and ethical - and that is a different question entirely.

There are a number of fandoms where the original creators have given tacit approval for fanfic (for example, JK Rowling's main objection appears to be that some of what is done with her characters could be taken as kiddie porn, since the characters are underage. Otherwise, it's been reported, she doesn't mind and even encourages it). But tacit approval doesn't mean a lot in legal terms since, if I understand correctly, copyright is protected unless the author gives specific approval. But is it unethical if one has been given to believe that the author doesn't care?

In many media fandoms, the canon is not the creation of a single author and prospective script writers are expected to have several (admittedly un-published) spec scripts ready. How is fan writing ethically any different or less creative than a tv spec script (which is also, technically, illegal)? And what if the TV show or movie in question is no longer in production and the creators have stated that they have no intention of continuing with it? An argument could be made that fan works actually _benefit_ these shows by keeping fan interest alive and creating a continuing market for DVDs and other tie-ins. But can the fan on her own make that determination?

Copyright exists in order to protect the ability of the original creator to profit from their work and, at least in the US, thereby encourage creativity. If there's nothing unethical about writing derivative works based on material in the public domain, then what is unethical about writing derivative material as long as it is on the understood condition that it is both not for profit and that it doesn't interfere with the original creator's ablitiy to profit from their work? (I'm aware of the Marion Zimmer Bradley case, at least peripherally, but that seems IMHO to be the exception of a fan writer acting in bad faith, rather than a general property of fandom).

I've asked more questions than I have answered, but my personal take on this is that it depends on the fandom, and that it is the responsibility of both fan writers and fanfic readers to weigh all these factors and make a determination that they, morally and ethically, can live with.

Calling fanwriters "the remoras of the lit fringe" as Mr. York did seems to indicate he doesn't think very much about their creative talents, but says nothing about the ethics of derivative writing.

And no, Mr. Montgommery, I am not a fan writer.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Montgomery, my apologies for misspelling your name in the previous post.

*blush*

[Mark A. York]

"but says nothing about the ethics of derivative writing."

Well, I was indeed remise in that department. They have no ethics, except "honor" among thieves. Anyone dare try Holden Caulfield fanfic? There's a test for you. And if I see it, I'll send it to the old man myself.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. York,
I'm sure that authors like Tom Stoppard, Neil Gaiman, Isabela Allende, Fred Saberhagen and Orson Scott Card (all authors of published derivative works) would be happy to hear that you don't think they have any ethics, but perhaps for the sake of argument you would like to explain the basis for your assertion.

For that matter, Shakespeare happily stole characters, settings and scenes from his contemporaries. While I wouldn't dare argue that your average fan slash story achieves the quality of Troilus and Cressida, I'd really like to know what you think of Shakespeare's ethics and how that relates to your judgement of the quality and creativity of his work.

[Lee Goldberg]

"In many media fandoms, the canon is not the creation of a single author and prospective script writers are expected to have several (admittedly un-published) spec scripts ready. How is fan writing ethically any different or less creative than a tv spec script (which is also, technically, illegal)?"

I have covered this before here many times...but I will say it again in fewer words. There's a HUGE difference between spec episode teleplays and fanfic.

The studios allows people to write spec episodic scripts using existing characters, situations, etc. for one narrowly defined purpose -- as a writing sample for a job on a TV series. You are not allowed to publish your spec or distribute it for any other purpose. Writing a spec teleplay is an accepted industry practice in the employement of professional writers and has the expressed consent of the rights holders and, therefore, is not an infringement of copyright or trademark.

Fanfic is copyright infringement, trademark infringement, and a violation of the creative rights of the author/rights holder of the original work.

[Lee Goldberg]

"I've asked more questions than I have answered, but my personal take on this is that it depends on the fandom, and that it is the responsibility of both fan writers and fanfic readers to weigh all these factors and make a determination that they, morally and ethically, can live with."

What about the AUTHORS??? What gives "fandom" the right to decide how an author's characters are used? Fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement and ownership. Just because you enjoy watching or reading something doesn't mean it's YOURS. The decision about how a writer's characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer.

MONK is not mine. He is not my creation. I would never even think about writing stories about him WITHOUT THE CREATOR'S APPROVAL My Monk books are written with the consent, involvement and final approval of Andy Breckman, who created the character and, by all rights, should be the only one who decides how Adrian Monk is used(in fact, the only reason I am writing Monk book is because Andy asked me to).

[Paul William Tenny]

"You are not allowed to publish your spec or distribute it for any other purpose."

I assume you meant "and distribute", not "or", because giving it to your agent *is* publishing. Your agent giving it to *anybody* else is also publishing.

Beyond that which is merely nitpicking, this kind of tacit approval, if anything, actually strengthens the argument for fan fiction. It's a wide spread industry that sanctions, thrives, and does not suffer at all from what is essentially fan fiction. Those are key factors that determine the legality of alleged infringement in court. Think about it.

Spec's are not for direct financial gain (just like ff.)

Spec's do not compete in the same market, or threaten the market for the original material (just like ff) because the market is the produced show, not the spec script.

As I've said in other places, the Supreme Court has said that these two factors are paramount over all others, and most things that pass these two tests must be heavily favored to be held non-infringing (their words, paraphrased, not mine. I'm dead serious about this and *everybody* on the planet that is anti-ff ignores it completely.)

Then consider that fan fiction actually has *more* going for it, in that it some of it (and perhaps most of it, perhaps not, that's a big assumption) is transformative. I've noted this as a toss up, and could fall either way in a court.

FF also does not use an unrealistic amount of the original material in replication. Just names and places. What you end up with is an entire industry that chooses (by your view) to intentionally ignore a massive amount of infringement, and doesn't suffer *at all* for it. In a court, believe me when I say that a judge would lend great weight towards that. A great deal.

I mean heck, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but there are definitely two sides to the debate. Both have lawyers who agree with them, both have anecdotal evidence, and neither side has any case precedent (though I have found a few copyright cases that establish the importance of the four tests -- 2 in particular -- over all other concerns.)

I've seen people dismiss the fair use arguments as "tired", but nobody has been able to refute them with the exception of transformative, and I've already admitted that transformative is a tossup. I've said this to people on my own site in my own comments: saying "you're wrong because I said so" is not an argument. Saying "you're wrong because this other guy is right" also is not an argument. Saying "fair use doesn't cover this" is not an argument. Saying "fair use applies because a Supreme Court decision said "x" "x" and "x" about copyright, and that supports the claim -- as does this law professor, as does the text of the law..." *That* is the beginning of an argument.

Granted, those things alone don't make a case, but when you add them up, you're well on your way. The anti-ff crowd hasn't done this. I read what Scalzi wrote (he came over to my site and busted my chops for disagreeing..twice, which frankly I loved) but I don't think he made his case. All he really has is one IP lawyer who agreed with him, and big deal, so did I. Mine was a professor to boot. It doesn't mean anything in and of itself.

You can believe what you want to believe, make any statements you want to make, but declaring fan fiction to be illegal as a matter of fact -- that which has not been proven as a matter of law -- is intellectually dishonest. Even I didn't declare it as fact, only that I'm as sure as I can be that I'm right, and everything I had that supported my opinion, which is substantially more than anybody else has provided thus far.

Nobody is arguing that creators don't have rights, only that those rights are not exclusive to them. And beyond that, fan fiction *does* live in a darn gray area, because even lawyers can't agree on it, and because no judge has ever decided it either way. In my mind, until proven otherwise, because this specific issue has not been adjudicated, FF should probably be presumed legal, just as *any* defendant in a court case must be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This legal issue has never been tried and thus should not be presumed illegal until it has. I haven't made that argument directly until right now, but if you want it, there's another thing in fan fiction's favor.

Now as far as trademark law goes, that's a whole other argument and a whole other section of the law for a whole other day.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

"What about the AUTHORS??? What gives "fandom" the right to decide how an author's characters are used? Fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement and ownership. Just because you enjoy watching or reading something doesn't mean it's YOURS. The decision about how a writer's characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer."

Well you and I (though not everyone in this thread) agree that it is infringement under the law. But if the ethical basis for the existence of copyright protection is to allow the author to profit from his work and encourage creativity* then what is the difference between A: writing something which is derivative of material in the public domain and B: writing something which is derivative of material where the author/creator is still alive as long as it is with the stated understanding that it is not for profit and won't compete directly with the author/creator's work?

And how do fandoms where the author/creator has given tacit, though not specific, approval fit into this framework?

Both ethically and under the law, intellectual property is not the same as real property-it eventually goes into the public domain. It doesn't take a sense of entitlement to be willing to think about how, when, and why that happens.

* at least in the US-I understand that fair use and the basis for the IP law is constructed differently Europe and that certain types of fanfiction are clearly and actually legal in Japan.

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

There is one big difference between a spec script and fan fiction that is being ignored. A spec script is written for professional reasons, to show that the writer can write a usable script for a television series. It is meant to be shown to other professionals in the industry. Fan fiction is written for personal reasons and personal reasons alone. Those are two very different things that are not connected at all.

I also don't consider fan fiction "fair," just unimaginative, lazy, and stupid.

Unlike fanfic, as Lee points out, writing TV spec scripts for professional purposes has the approval of the rights holders. Fanfiction does not. You are mistaking not being sued for approval. It's not the same thing.

There have been many authors (and Lee has listed some of them elsewhere in the fanfic debate on his blog) who have come out publicly and said they do not approve of fanfic. Rowling has said she does not approve of sexually explicit Potter fic. But fanficcers say fuck you and do it anyway.

By contrast, no studio or network has EVER said writers can't write episodic spec scripts. In fact, they say the opposite. In order to get a TV writing job, you MUST write an episodic spec first as your professional entre.

It's a ridiculous fantasy for fanfiction writers to compare the masturbatory slop they "write" to a specifically and clearly sanctioned spec script teleplay written for limited professional purposes. They are not even close to the same thing.

[another thing]

And I've never read a spec where Spock ends up blowing Sulu.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Saxelid,
Since you seem to support TV spec script writing because it's written with tacit permission and for profit, I assume you feel that it is not "unimaginative, lazy and stupid" despite the fact that it's derivative and the characters and settings belong to someone else. But someone else, who writes Jane Austen fanfic purely for personal fun and entertainment, is? That reasoning seems a bit hypocritical, and doesn’t seem to be relevant to either the legal status or the ethics of derivative writing. After all, in the words of Theodore Sturgeon, “90% of everything is crud.” I imagine that also applies to most of the spec scripts submitted to studios.

Anonymous said:
“There have been many authors (and Lee has listed some of them elsewhere in the fanfic debate on his blog) who have come out publicly and said they do not approve of fanfic.”

There are also fans and fan authors who respect that and avoid using or reading material based on those authors’ work. “Fanfic writers” are not a uniform group. To use an analogy, if I sell TVs does the fact that the guy in the store next to mine sells stolen TVs mean that I am also a criminal? After all, we both sell electronics.

In addition, I notice you have not mentioned anything about authors/creators who have come out with public statements that they either don’t mind or even encourage fan writing. Are fans to be faulted for taking them at their word? The studios and networks may invite writers to submit spec scripts, but that doesn’t mean those scripts are not infringing on copyright (which they are), only that there is an industry understanding that the creators want people to submit new ideas and won’t sue unless someone tries to make an independent profit. Unlike trademark, copyright doesn’t need to be defended. So when is it ethical to borrow ideas?

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

Mr. Saxelid,
Since you seem to support TV spec script writing because it's written with tacit permission and for profit, I assume you feel that it is not "unimaginative, lazy and stupid" despite the fact that it's derivative and the characters and settings belong to someone else. But someone else, who writes Jane Austen fanfic purely for personal fun and entertainment, is? That reasoning seems a bit hypocritical, and doesn’t seem to be relevant to either the legal status or the ethics of derivative writing. After all, in the words of Theodore Sturgeon, “90% of everything is crud.” I imagine that also applies to most of the spec scripts submitted to studios.

And what your response completely ignores (not surprising, really) is that spec scripts are written strictly for professional reasons. To show potential employers that the writer can deliver a script for a produced series. Fanfic is not. There is a very clear line, even if those who argue in its favor like to muddy the waters with meaningless distractions from the point.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Saxelid,
What does the creativity or effort put into the work have to do with it's intended purpose? By calling fanfic "unimaginative, lazy and stupid" you were commenting on it's quality, not it's legality or morality. Your remarks were muddying the waters, not mine.

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

Okay, let's remove this mythical distraction of "quality" from the equation entirely and go for intended purpose.

Spec scripts exist for the sole purpose of showing that a writer is capable of doing the job that s/he wishes to be hired to do. Fan fic has no purpose other than self gratification. The line that permenantly separates the two is quite clear to me.

[Cavenaugh]

You know what is so fascinating about this arguement? Not a single NY press has announced "Please feel free to write fan fiction of all of our author's work!" The people who scream that it is legal and demand that authors bow down to the will of the fandom are the fandom. You show me someone who screams for the legality of fan fiction and I'll show you a person with a vast collection of star wars action figures and zero appreciation for the sanctity of the creative process, that indelible organic process by which real authors create work. You want to write fan fiction? Go ahead, just don't stick it on the internet and call yourself an author. Somewhere Lori Jareo beats on, I assure you.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Saxelid,
Copyright protection doesn’t have a special exclusion for job interviews any more than it does for amateur writing.

In the example you used, both parties are infringing on the copyright of the creator. Unless a spec script was _specifically_ licensed by the copyright holder before the writer showed it to anyone (including the writer’s agent), then the tacit permission of the studio for agents to float scripts for writers is no more valid under law than an author who says publicly that they don’t mind fans writing fiction based off their work. So why do you argue that one is right and the other is wrong? Both are creating derivative works so apparently just using someone else’s ideas is not inherently wrong. Both have the tacit permission of the author/creator, so the fact that they are still technically breaking the law can apparently be tolerated. Neither the TV writer nor the fanfic writer can independently profit from the work, which is why copyright protection exists, so that doesn’t seem to be an objection.

In my opinion, fanfiction that is based on material by an author who has categorically said that he/she does not give permission for fan writing is on much more shaky ethical ground. Similarly, work based off an author who has not expressed an opinion one way or another. At that point it’s a matter of whether fan works hurt the ability of the author/creator to profit from their work and that is not only much harder to determine and it’s not clear that the average fan writer is qualified to make that determination herself. She is probably not aware of all the ins and outs of publishing/TV production/movie making and therefore can’t judge the impact that her writing will have.

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

I think you're wrong. I think your logic is deeply flawed. Once again, you ignore the circumstance and end result. Spec scripts are not written for public distribtion. They are done for a select audience to show that a the submitting writer is capable of doing the job they are applying for. What these so-called "amateur writers" are doing is posting non-original work in a public forum for the world to see. Those are two very different circumstances and to place them on an equal level is almost laughable.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Saxelid,
I guess I don't understand why you think that the size and scope of the publishing venue trumps the author's publicly stated opinion or permission on derivative work, especially if neither the fan author or the TV writer is profiting from the work. I’m also not sure why you bring up the originality of the work since as far as I can tell it is only relevant in that both fanfic and spec scripts are covered by the original creator's copyright.

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

One final time on this particular issue, then I'll walk away. A spec script has no true "audience," they are nothing more than writing samples meant to show a writer's ability to work within a particular format. That they will be able to capture and present the particular formula of a show. That is a far cry from what fan fiction writers do. They "publish" their non-original work in a forum that allows anybody in the world to read it. If there is one thing that these "amateur writers" do profit from, it is the attention that they receive. It's attention I don't think they deserve. Which is why I ignore it. I don't read fan fic.

I do think that the technology that allows everybody in the world to almost instantly communicate with each other has allowed fan fiction to, at the moment, rocket past the ability of copyright owners to properly monitor infringement matters. On one level, no one wants to anger the cash cow that is fandom, on another, someone will eventually have to take the step of saying to a fan community, "Look folks, we create it, you just enjoy it, and that's all."

Of course, that will be ignored and things will go on the way they are right now, with people claiming to have a right to play with someone else's toys simply because they wish it to be so.

>>I assume you meant "and distribute", not "or", because giving it to your agent *is* publishing. Your agent giving it to *anybody* else is also publishing.<<

Paul,

Interesting. I should consider myself published then since I "gave" my writing to agents and publishers for consideration. And all my writing friends are also published since their agents gave their stuff to publishers.

[Father of toddlers]

The Toddler Rules of Possession:

http://parents.berkeley.edu/jokes/toddlerrules.html

[Chadwick H. Saxelid]

The Toddler Rules: Yeah, that pretty much explains it. :D

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Goldberg said:
What about the AUTHORS??? What gives "fandom" the right to decide how an author's characters are used?...The decision about how a writer's characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer.

And Mr. Saxelid said:
someone will eventually have to take the step of saying to a fan community,"Look folks, we create it, you just enjoy it, and that's all."

These, and many other comments in this thread, indicate to me that there is some misapprehension that copyright exists to protect an author’s ideas from being used in a way that they don’t like. That’s not true. In fact, parody of the work is specifically excluded from the protection. US law is also fairly specific about the fact that the author does not have some sort of moral right to the work itself. If they did, the public domain wouldn’t exist.

Copyright exists in order to protect the author’s right to _profit_ from their original ideas. The way that the law has been enacted doesn’t recognize a difference between for-profit and non-profit, but taking advantage of the profit motive to encourage creative work is clearly the motive behind the law. Ethically, though not legally, derivative work that is not for profit and which doesn’t hurt the original author’s ability to profit from the work is different than derivative work that is used for profit.

Mr. Saxelid objected that credit and recogniton of other fans does constitute profit, which is a valid point. But that comes from the original creator's right to profit, not some sort of metaphysical ownership of the ideas. I don't happen to agree; admiration is not the same as cold hard cash and, in any event, the majority of fanfic writers are very careful to give credit to the original creator. Unlike profits, credit and recognition is not a zero-sum game.

[kyler]

I think my friend bryley said it best:

Fanfiction is writen by fans for fans it's not ment in bad way. The writers I read write online for free. And do it for the love of writing thats all.For me it's a way of writing down new look on how things should be instead of the writer way of seeing it. And if others like to read it and reply.Well for me that's how it is a lot what if's for the world to see writen those who love the most.

I did look this up:
http://www.wacklepedia.com/f/fa/fan_fiction.html

I write fanfiction and will always do so.
I think bryley's wright Fanfiction is writen by fans for fans. So if you don't like it stay away from our communites and off our sites.

Many complain about Fanfiction.nst Adult fanficton and say it noting rape fic's and stories on chan. Why are you even looking? I write slash and I state up front I do not own said book or movie. And make no money off them.

My writings are pure fantasy are for other fanfiction lovers not for people like you!Fandom is too large to be push back or held down!

[clark knowlton]

Kyler, you'd be better off learning how to write in standard English before embarking on your next Harry/Draco/Spock love triangle fic. I don't mean to belittle your skills as a wordsmith or as the voice of fandom, but I pray to God that you're actually a 13 year old from Thailand who is just trying out his English skills and not an actual adult.

Of course, I did find this very persuasive: "Many complain about Fanfiction.nst Adult fanficton and say it noting rape fic's and stories on chan. Why are you even looking? I write slash and I state up front I do not own said book or movie." Yes, yes, indeed. I see your point.

[kyler]

Harry/Draco/Spock Huh? I have never written any thing like that number one. Number Two I have a beta writer to check my work before it's posted any where.

I think you need check you facts before you start attacking me.I do nothing with Spock I mean ever! I am not even in to that fandom gross! Harry Potter is cool though it's one my favorite's.

http://daylan-rayne.livejournal.com/

If Kyler and the guy who wrote the SeaQuest fanfic represent the intelligence and personality of the readers and writers of fanfiction, Lee can rest his case. They have made Lee's point for him better than he ever could!

Kyler quotes from Wikipedia as if it's the Encyclopedia Brittanica...which, I'd wager, she'd find too difficult to read.

"Number Two I have a beta writer to check my work before it's posted any where.

I think you need check you facts before you start attacking me."

I think you and your "beta writer" need to learn basic English grammer (God, I hope English is your second language...the alternative is too pathetic and frightening to consider).

Can you imagine what this person's stories must be like? He can't even write a coherent sentence, much less make a persuasive argument of any kind.

If this represents what the writers and readership of fanfiction are like, it's truly sad....and frightening. Fanfiction is obviously literature for the illiterate by the illiterate.

Kyler is what our children will be like if Republicans continue to run our country. Remember this come election time.

[frakman]

I just clicked Kyler's name on his comment and got this LJ profile:

"about me:
I'm a homosexual male(Bi-sexual)my name is Kyler Kelly I'm Irish and Amrican-Indian(Crow)
I read slash and het! Favorites things Reading and wirting and any time with family
and friends :D"

Here's an excerpt from one of his Harry Potter slash stories:

Professor Severus Snape was not happy his summer was over. It had been far
too short, especially with another year of Potter to deal with. Why his
heart raced at that thought confused and angered him. “I won’t let him
affect me,” he snarled under his breath as he waited for sleep to come.
He felt his pulse race faster at the thought of green eyes and an easy
smile . . . and that slender youthful form. Harry was not a child anymore
that were certain.

http://www.xanga.com/daylan_rayne

You can read the rest at your own peril...it's even more painfully inept. This is a perfect example of the kind of writing fanficcers are trying to protect. They're right. Screw copyright. We need more of this shit.

[kyler]

Kyler quotes from Wikipedia as if it's the Encyclopedia Brittanica...which, I'd wager, she'd find too difficult to read.

RE:
Again your guilty of not checking your facts. So read and read it again if you need to! But please get it straight.

I'm a male age 28 my bio is on my lj.

And I picked Wikipedia because it a genaral
source of knowledge that most people use it.
It not the only thing I've found on the sub-ject.

And the fic:"The Light"

http://www.xanga.com/daylan_rayne/520642028/item.html

And it has been betaed. But the Darry story has not been betaed yet I'm afraid. My friend Mconner is looking at that for me.

The Xanga account is for my recommendations for art and fiction mostly fan based.It also has a few of my works in progress. And I have more than one xanga account *grins*.

[A.]

Actually, people with Kyler's spelling and grammar are often mocked in the fanfiction community. But literate fanfiction writers won't waste their time on this blog. The people here only want to bash fanfiction, not discuss it.

[kyler]

*Shakes-head* I'm writing as a hobby and do
not post what write on fanfiction.net. My
prpblems with dyslexia prevent it.

Secondly no one in my fandom has ever mocked me cause they understand. I even know a few editors so your argument holds no ground for me.

And stuping so low as to name calling and picking apart others work may make you feel all BIG AND BAD. But I find it a petty and unfouned.

The people here only want to bash fanfiction, not discuss it.

But this I actually do agree with no sarcasm
intended I say what I mean unlike some peolpe. And more importanly I leave my name and links unlike some cowardly posters above.Who want to bash but are afraid to be honest about who you are. That alone is totaly sad.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Re: The comments in response to kyler's posts.

I'm pretty sure that I could find fiction on the Internet that is also awful, trite, un-grammatical, badly spelled, but original. I generally try to refrain from assuming that all original fiction writers are equally bad and evaluate them on their own merits.

[kyler]

I generally try to refrain from assuming that all original fiction writers are equally bad and evaluate them on their own merits.

re:

I'm not speaking to all novelist or original fiction writers. Merly the
one or ones who commented on this
atticle.

I have actually have collaborated on a few original stories myself. I never claimed to be the voice of fanfictin. I was merly commenting on what this article and others like it posted here.

I have been reading them for years now. They are becoming more malicious as time goes on. So I gave my opinion and quoted a
friend so I don't get what your saying.

[lost_erizo from LiveJournal]

Mr. Kyler,

If you re-read my post you will see that I did not write that in response to your posts. I was addressing those who posted comments here mocking all fanfic as a result of your posts. I stated no opinion one way or another on your writing. I merely wanted people to realize, as you said, that you do not represent all fanfic writers.

[kyler]

Okay, I see what your saying. Thank you
for clearing that up.

Kyler, are you aware that John Irving and Richard Ford are dyslexic, too? That's one thing in common you share, other than the fact that two of you are world famous, best selling authors and one of you writes fan fiction about ass fucking Snape.

[Quinctia]

When people question the virtue of fanfic, one need not look any further than authors such as William Shakespeare. He took many stories that already existed in other forms (history, mythology) and turned them into pop culture.

People remake Shakespeare into modern versions all of the time. The movies 10 Things I Hate About You and O have more in common than Julia Styles, they are both basically fanfiction forms of Shakespeare's plays. It's not like anyone asked Will if he wanted things to play out like this.

Tons of "fanfic" stories have been published. The one I can think of off the top of my head is "Lo's Diary," which is a retelling of Lolita from the point of view of Lolita.

The oldest "fanfic" example I can think of right now is The Aeneid. Vergil took the story of heroes from the Trojan War, from the Iliad and Odyssey, and spun it into the origins of Rome, adding in propaganda to make the emperor Augustus look good.

Ridiculously strict intellectual property rights are a new, modern thing. People like Anne Rice have no problem using them to their advantage to attack fanfic writers on the internet, but ignore the heart of them by writing their own fanfic. What would you call her derivative story about Jesus?

Old stories didn't belong to their creators, they belonged to the imaginations of everyone who knew them. It seems to me that writers are getting a tad greedy. Once the story leaves your hands and is in someone else's, it's in their mind and their imagination to do what they will. As long as we've had civilization, stories have morphed with the audiences' imaginations. Why should it stop now? Because writers are apparently ignorant of the history of storytelling?

[kyler]

Kyler, are you aware that John Irving and Richard Ford are dyslexic, too? That's one thing in common you share,other than the fact that two of you are world famous, best selling authors and one of you writes fan fiction about ass fucking Snape.

I only commented on my problems with dyslexia to show my own limits. I was unaware that these writer's were also
dyslexic. And so far I haven't written anything about ass fucking Snape yet!

Writing where it be orignal or fanfictoin
helps me exercise my mind.And improves my memory witch suffers form my problems dyslexia.

[Diana]

Sure it's illegal, but who's going to stop it? You're just blowing your whistle like a traffic cop in the middle of the Indy 500. Have fun, I guess.

Hmm?

I wonder if this has anything to do with Fanfiction.net's rule about not posting fics that are in script format...

Maybe that's why Lee is so mad.

I'm sorry to all the 'FICS AND SPEC SCRIPTS ARE NOT THE SAME!' people, but you are a bunch of hypocrites.

Kyler writes what's called 'badfic'. And for those thinking places that mock or complain about it don't exist, I don't think you are even looking for them.

[AranamiTouma]

For one thing, Quinctia is a smart cookie.

For another, I deeply hope that not everyone is taking Kyler as the ideal example of a ficcer.

Their are diffrent levels of quality in fanfiction, diffrent levels of legality (people write fanfiction for all sorts of things, and often the source *is* under fair use/public domain/lax copyright laws), and diffrent levels of maturity. Not everyone writing adult fanfiction is writing bad porn, and not all fanfiction is adult (though I have noticed a trend towards adult themes because it's "cool").

Some of the best stories I've read have rivaled published works in quality-- certainly rivaled the teenychick stuff I'm supposed to be reading, like Bridget Jones' Diary, and some of it rivals the stuff I do read, the classic scifi and fantasy and manga.

Fanworks are not innately inferior just because of legal questionability (which people DO realize, but out hobby is a harmless one), nor do they show immaturity on the part of the authour. I would quote some of my favorite works to you, even, except that I'm afraid of attacks on the authours; however, I would like to point out the communitie fanficrants on Livejournal. Look around for a bit and you'll understand why.