Tit for Tate

For some reason, I've received lots of emails lately asking about Tate Publishing. Here's one:

My daughter (14 years old) recently submitted (through her school) a children’s book that she wrote.   Surprisingly, she received a contract to publish her book from Tate Publishing.  However, they are asking us to invest almost $4,000.  I am simply trying to determine if Tate is a vanity publisher, POD publisher, or what?  I want to support my daughter, but I want to be educated first.  I cannot find much on the internet about Tate Publishing.  Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

I can't imagine why any school or responsible teacher would submit student work to a vanity press, but that issue aside, here's what I told her (which will be familiar to any of you who read this blog on a regular basis):

Legitimate publishers pay YOU, not the other way around. Any publisher that asks you for money in return for "publishing" your book is a vanity press.  If you are intent on publishing your daughter's work in book form yourself, go to iUniverse, it's a hell of a lot cheaper.

Here's another email I received about Tate:

What can you tell me about Tate Publishing Co? Unfortunately, I have already invested almost $ 8,000 in 2 books, both of which are now published. I visited their offices twice, met the staff and felt they were legit Christian organization.

I don't know what being Christian has to do with anything. What makes him think that a Christian won't rip him off? I guess he 's unfamiliar with most TV evangelists and their "send me your cash" brand of faith and spirituality. But that's a different issue. As far as Tate goes, I told him basically the same thing I told the other person: 

They are a vanity press. I'm sure you can find some legit Christians at another vanity press who will print your manuscript in book form for much less money.

Comments

[Bill Johnston]

I can personally verify that Tate Publishing is nothing but a scam. I had the unfortunate experience of visiting their office in Mustang, OK last June. I turned down their offer after I endured their "boiler room" sales tactics for about an hour and a half. They used lines like "in order to keep you locked in at our $4K processing fee, we need you to sign today." The fee is increasing next month blah blah blah etc. ect. The real unfortunate part of the whole deal was a wasted plane ticket to visit that dump.

[Paul Knecht]

All the questions you have received
about their honorability, seem like good questions. However no one has done any business with them, of the chosen people, you indicated here. One party bought a plane ticket and spent a hour and half with them. Why do this, buy a plane ticket, visit. I heard nothing about a bona fide book that he wrote, or that any thing written was acceptable by any Publisher. No one has tried them, to do a thing for them, and I hear all of these unfounded, statements. There are no big time publishers anywhere going to take a no-name, off the street to endorse them, and put up a ton a money, on someone they do not know.
I`m neither defending, Tate, or against them. Also most manuscripts written are not accepted, which means most work is not acceptable, or workable for the publisher. I`m a lay person, reading this article. I take offense to anyone claiming scam, if they have no bonafide info on the organization. Whater anyone`s crede , should have nothing to do with it. Being a Christian Organization, does not constitute, any wrong doing, or a red flag to go up. I`m defending no one here. Just questioning the accuracy of all involved by the statements here. I`ve heard pro & cons, on publishers, for I read on the puter, that Publish America, is a stay away from organization, and they don`t really even charge you to get something published. I understand no one gets anything published of novice form, only 2% perhaps. Which is none. So most publishing companys, do charge to do a book. How good each one is I do not know. I just wrote a book, and I`m trusting an organization, and it is costing me. To this point, I have no problem. I also know the cheapest is usually the most expensive. So everyone pays, and these novices , need to understand that. I`m not a publisher. I`m a lay person, looking for information. Thanks, Paul Knecht

[Leon Mentzer]

Author: Leon Mentzer

I’m a Tate Publishing author.

“JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU’RE ALL ALONE”
“A collection of five wonderful stories for the whole family”
BY: LEON MENTZER
Voted “Best New Christian Writer 2005”
by www.christianstoryteller.com.
Named one of the
“Top 100 Inspirational Writers”
in the nation by Writer’s Digest 74th Annual Writing Competition.

Tate is unique in the publishing world. The author retains complete rights to their book and they do charge a fee. There’re no other fees added. No marketing fees, no PR fees.

This would fit one of the definitions of a subsidy publisher. However, in the legal world, Tate Publishing is referred to as a partnership publisher because they do invest their money in the author’s book as well as the author. This is called “A meeting of the minds”.

This investment, in my case, was over three times the amount of the author’s fee.

Tate Publishing has paid for my book’s advertisement in the February 2005 issue of Christian Review, the “Top 100 best Sellers” page and in LifeWay Christian Resource’s June 2005 catalog for release to all their 124 stores nationwide and over 700,000 listed customers. Christian Review quoted me over $9,000 for the ad Tate placed and LifeWay quoted $3,400.

My book was picked up by Lifeway Christian Stores with an initial purchase of 1,200 books.

Tate is a traditional royalty publisher also. They pay royalties every quarter. 15% from book store sales, 40% from web sales. If an author has or is part of a web site and uses PayPal to sell their books then the return is 60%.

Tate Publishing uses Spring Arbor as one of their distributors. They are a leading distributor of Christian books.

My book is listed by Faithworks on their top 50 best sellers listed at # 41 http://www.faithworksonline.com/docs/50_bestsellers.pdf

My book sells very well overseas. Here’s one of the web sites

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/booksea.cgi?KEYWORD=%6A%75%73%74+%77%68%65%6E+%79%6F%75+%74%68%69%6E%6B+%79%6F%75+%61%72%65+%61%6C%6C+%61%6C%6F%6E%65

As to being: A scam

I prefer dealing in facts.

Not every author is happy with their publisher if their book isn’t a run away best seller or they are turned down. Too often a first time author doesn’t have a realistic idea of just how many books they will sell. Research shows that a successful first time author could sell between 1000 to 2500 books. That fact alone shakes an author’s confidence.

My book has done very well. Does that mean Tate Publishing is the best? No. it means that the partnership involved in this book worked. They did their job and I did mine.

And those are the facts.

Leon Mentzer

[zack caine]

hi i have sent in my manuscript to tate.i also got a contract. Im only 15 and at first before the price it looked like a good place to get a book published. But now that i've seen the 4000 investment pay it doesnt seem to good. I took a look at iuniverse but it dosent publish childrens books. Do you have any sugestions on were i can go? Thanks

[Lee Goldberg]

Zack,

The important thing now is to keep writing. Never, I repeat NEVER, pay to have your book published. If someone offers to publish your book in return for money, that should be a big warning sign to you that they are not a real publisher but rather a "vanity press" or worse, an out-right scam.

If you really feel you're ready to submit your book for publication, only approach reputable publishers. You can start by looking at who published the books that you enjoy reading, then look them up in the Writers Market and see if they are accepting unsolicited submissions (meaning not from agent).

But I would say that, at this point, you are better off concentrating more on refining your skills than getting published.

Take some writing courses and read as much as you can. But the most important thing of all is to just keep writing!

Lee

[Joseph Eshun]

I a published author with Tate Publishing. My books are found almost everywhere on the internet.I have not received any big royalties from them. I am giving them a try. I hope they justify themself. I am not speaking against Tate neither am I speaking for them howvere I know that the end will justify the means.
Joseph

[Lorin]

I have sent a Children's Book with the manuscript and I did the illustrations for this. Tate Publishing has sent me a book signing contract package. I do not know anything about publishing so I am trying to ask any experienced persons out there if this company is a trusting company?

Is there any one out there that has written childrens book or any others if you have been successfull with Tate? And have you seen your money back after that 5,000 amount?

Does other Publishers make you pay a participation investment? It is reasonable to set the amount of books to 5,000? Help here!

No, this is a scam! Do NOT pay them $5000! Publishers pay you, you don't pay them...if you do, you're a sucker.

But if you are determined to pay to be published, you can do it for a couple of hundred bucks through iUniverse. Run screaming from this contract.

[John Jay Hughes]

I am a published author: 10 books, hundreds of articles. Tate has offered me a contract for book #11. I want to talk with people who have experience with Tate before I sign.

[clarence swinney]

I sent Tate my manuscript this week.

Are there other publishers you suggest for my program.

LIFEAHOLIC{WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING)

I marketed as 8 tape audio twenty years ago.

I plan to speak to churches-high schools-universities-clubs-businesses.

It was reviewed by many and three university Presidents gave it high marks and suggested I put it into a book.
That was 20 years ago. Golf First.

I present a possible table of contents

I failed to get two political books published in 1998. Publishers wanted $10,000 to $20,000.

Please advise. I will appreciate it.
clarence swinney
cwswinney@netzero.net LIFEAHOLIC

A TERM DEVELOPED AFTER YEARS OF STUDY AND RESEARCH RESULTING FROM A STATEMENT BY REV. GEORGE W. SWINNEY TO HIS WORKAHOLIC SON CLARENCE—

“SON, WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING”

LEARN TO WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING

BY

EVERYTHING CAN BE IMPROVED-EVERYTHING
DAILY HABITS FOR SUCCESS
HOW TO MAKE SIMPLE THE COMPLEX THINGS
VIEWING YOUR WORLD FROM YOUR OWN SPACESHIP
DEVELOPING YOUR PRIORITIES IN LIFE
DON’T REINVENT THE WHEEL
VALUE OF SELF IMPORTANCE
BEING PRESIDENT OF YOUR CORPORATION
SELLING YOURS SKILLS-NOT GIVING THEM AWAY
THE USE OF YOUR WAREHOUSE-STORE JEWELS NOT JUNK
TOP DOWN TECHNIQUES ON YOUR JOB

CLARENCE W. SWINNEY
PO BOX 3411
BURLINGTON, NC 27215
CWSWINNEY@NETZERO.NET

[J.K MacDonald]

i have been picked up by Tate and they have been fantastic to work with.Do not listen to the negitive, it takes time to get your name out there so if your looking for instant results your in the wrong business.

You haven't been "picked up" by Tate -- they have agreed to take your money. You're a sucker. (And it's "you're," not "your")

[Awand Frebo]

I have a friend who sent in his work to Tate Publishing. It is a fiction piece and reads very well. My question is this, does Tate always take so long to read, or does this mean my friend did not make the mark? It has been nearly two months. Also, is it true that when they have you come to Okla. to sign the contract, they put you up in a hotel until all the business is taken care of? Some things about them sound to good to be true. I want my friend to be satisfied with the publisher of his choice, but I also want the publisher to be satisfied with my friend, not just using him and his talent to get money. Please feel free to comment. Thank you,

Awand Frebo

[Donna]

I am trying to get published, this will be my first time. I am looking into publishing companies, can anyone tell me which one is best for poetry? xlibis or authorhouse or infinity or iuniverse, I am in the process of typing my book so I can put it on a disk, is this neccesary? or can i send in a completed maunscript?

[Katherine Allred]

I don't usually comment on blogs, but this topic makes my teeth hurt. First, let me say I've had seven books published, both electronically and in print, through three different publishers. And I've never--let me repeat that--NEVER, paid them a penny for marketing. A legitimate publisher covers the cost of marketing your book because they want it to sell. If it sells, they make money. If they don't think it will sell, they won't buy it. Basically, what Tate is doing is telling you, "Your writing sucks and we don't think it'll make us any money, so you have to pay us $4,000 or we won't publish it." I don't care if they call it a "partnership" or a "meeting of the minds." It's a vanity press. Have you ever looked up the definition of vanity in the dictionary? Allow me. It's something that is considered futile, worthless, or empty of significance.
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation.

Even while I'm typing this response I know there are people out there who will ignore this advice because they need to believe what they're writing is worth publishing. But please, don't fall prey to these scammers. A real publisher will never ask you for money. And isn't it better to know you've succeeded because you're good, than to know you had to pay someone to publish your work?

[Missie Nicole]

This is my question. How many people are really paid for printing there book as a first time author? If you are unknown, publishers will not even accept your manuscript for review? How are you then supposed to get paid upfront for publishing? Unless you are famous, or have a famous story, then it seems improbable at best to be thrown money for your manuscript. Is this not a valid concept?

[Lee Goldberg]

That simply isn't true. I sold my first novel and I wasn't famous...nor did I have "a famous story" to tell. My brother sold his first novel, too, without any contacts or advantages...except talent and perseverance.

The vast majority of bestselling novelists began their careers as an unknowns who sold their first novel to a publisher who recognized their talent.

Nobody knew who Stephen King was when he sold CARRIE...or who JK Rowling was when she sold her first Harry Potter novel.

Read some interviews with your favorite novelists and learn how they sold their first books. I can guarantee you that 99.9% of them NEVER paid anyone to publish them.

Vanity presses like Tate prey on desperation, fear, impatience, gullibility and ignorance. Don't be one of the suckers.

[EC]

it's true...the Harry Potter author was poor..you think she actually had money to pay for a publisher????

[fiifos@yahoo.com]

Having Tate publishing publish my book is the greatest mistake I have made. Recently they sent me 26 cents as my royalty for the last quarter of last year. Till date I have no idea the number of copies of my books that have been printed so far.I owe a credit card company $4000.00. My book is virtually in obscurity. I have certainly regretted doing this. I guess I was impulsed with their sugar coated words and I was trapped into believing that my 4000 dollars would come back after a year. It has been almost a year, they have not contacted me neither have I heard anything from them concerning my book. Good luck with you if they have met your expectation. They are yet to meet mine.

[David Paul]

Per Tate Publishing: Friends, life is an adventure. I have written numerous pieces for Concordia Publishing House. Recently I have published 2 books and I've gotten to know the CEO of this publisher personally. I know what it costs simply to print a book (it's a lot less than many suppose). I signed with Tate. In less than a week of reviewing my ms. they sent me an overnight contract to sign. The $4,000 I paid will not even cover the cost of printing the books, much less editing, promotion, etc. For this same $4,000 (a little less, actually) of money they are also producing audio books of my manuscript. If my book doesn't sell, they'll have lost money running in the thousands. I can understand why a publisher that is willing to work with unknown authors hedges. The constant reference to "publishers pay you" is true for established authors and publishers who won't even consider an unknown artist. I'm not sure how well Tate will market my book in its various forms, but if my book doesn't do well they WILL lose money. I don't think they want to do that. Thanks for the discussion.

[Carol Levy]

I do not know Tate but their site certainly does not make it sound like a POD or vanity until you really investigate. Not a good sign.
My book, A Pained Life, a chronic pain journey, https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=18435
was published through Xlibris.
Random House owns 49% or 51% of Xlibris. That is because they believe POD will be the way of publishing in the future.
Yes, if you want to go through rejection after rejection until you find an editor who likes what you wrote and if you want to hope that person is still there when you make the changes he/she suggests and you want to keep your fingers crossed that the committee who then looks at the manuscript ok's it for publication, that's great.
If you don't then POD may be for you.
Successful authors, such as Piers Anthony, are going POD because for the same reason many of us do, we have complete control over the content and the editing and the book is available in 2 - 3 months, as opposed to 12 to 18 or longer. The royalties are also higher than with 'traditional publishing' and we retain all rights to our work.
That is great you went traditiional. But please do not put down what is now a very legitimate way of getting a book out there.
There is crap with POD because of the ease of publication but there is also crap from traditional houses.
Beware of the scammers. Make sure if you choose a POD you check them out very carefully.
And don't let someone tell you POD is the same as vanity. You do not, unless you decide that is what you want to do, sell your books out of the back of your car.
Your books get sold through the publisher or thru distribution companies, such as Ingram, just like the 'real' books do.

My book was very well reviewed by a NY Times Magazine writer. Other reviews have been positive too.
To my pleasant surprise word of mouth, and no other advertising, has kept it selling consistently for 4 years.
I do not recommend Xlibris but I am very happy with my decision to go POD.
Thank you.

[Carol Levy]

Just an addendum. I looked up your books and went to your website. It is certainly easier to find a publisher when you start out as a journalist. You presented it as though you did not have - if not a foot at least a toe in the door. As a journalist you certainly had contacts that most of the hoi pooli do not.
Thank you

[Clifford D. Tate]

I have been offered a contract from Publish America. I have read some disturbing things about them on the internet. However, I have also read some of their Authors love their results with them. I also have that same Manuscript being reviewed by Tate Publishing. I plan on doing constant marketing of my book regardless of the Publisher. Do you think it would be better for me to go the self-publishing route. What about Dorrance Publishing?

[Matthew]

I have researched Tate publishing. I have also known the president personally, even though he doesn't know. I grew up in the same area, and wrestled under him as my coach. This is only to say that I know that the man has a heart. I've seen it. I AM defending the man.
It's important to understand the leader in an organization.
The leader is the foundation and all the companies integrity flows in and out of its leaders. That is why it is important to explain to you all that Mr. Tate is an honest man.
Furthermore there is another point I'd like to make.
As an example, a Gillette shaving kit easily costs me eighteen dollars, and extra razors about another thirteen for an eight pack. Over time the cost of shaving with traditional razors adds up to far more than two maintenance free, long lasting electric razors, not to mention all the facial creams and medicine it takes to keep the razor burn under control. Very expensive. Diposable razors get even more costly, being a dollar sometimes more every time I shave, and with disposables I end up having to re-shave often. If I had bought a seventy or eighty dollar electric razor, It would have paid for itself in shaving cream, aftershave, clearasil, lotion, and new razors, after six months. Electric razor blades are typically replaced every few years.
The topic of this blog is not razors, I know, it is publishing fees. These are products and services. The principle works in every market, every industry. Normal publishers would never have even given daughter of the man shown above half a wink. Instead Mr. Tate offers a one time fee, deals away with agency, gives you almost 40% in royalties for every book sold and continues to venture with you in your advertising needs. I just mailed my manuscript to Tate. I couldn't even get my foot in the door of an AGENCY, that MIGHT have sent my work into Random house, That MIGHT have considered publishing my book. How much do you think that would have cost me, just for being a new author?

In the literature industry, it should never be expected to make much money off of your first book. No one is ever expected to make it in their first small business venture. No one can cover the costs of marketing anything with just the first sale. In the case of the child above, it is plain silly to think anyone would publish something from the hand of a child, rarely in all of history is that successful. Yet for a one time fee, she was given a chance by Mr Tate. Now that means Mr Tate is crazy, or Tate publishing really does look for the diamond in the rough.

[Lee Goldberg]

Clifford,

Dorrance is another vanity press that preys on the desperation, gullibility, and foolishness of aspiring authors. They are no better or worse than Tate...as far as I am concerned, it would be a mistake to pay either one of them to print your manuscript in book form.

If you are intent on throwing your money away, you can throw away a lot less by going to iuniverse.com or at lulu.com.

Matthew,

Vanity presses thrive on misinformed people like yourself. You write:

"Instead Mr. Tate offers a one time fee, deals away with agency, gives you almost 40% in royalties for every book sold and continues to venture with you in your advertising needs."

That's because Tate makes 99% of their money off authors, not book sales. It's easy to give a 40% royalty on books that will never sell. If they actually manage to make a sale to someone who isn't an author, it's gravy...and an enticement to get a naive, gullible author to throw away even more money on another book (it's like the slim pay-offs slot machines give to players...it's an enticement to get them to keep plugging in their coins).

Agents are a benefit to authors and well worth the 10-15% they get for their effort.
Without one, you'll spend a LOT more getting suckered by vanity press scams and never become a real, published author.

You write: "I just mailed my manuscript to Tate. I couldn't even get my foot in the door of an AGENCY, that MIGHT have sent my work into Random house, That MIGHT have considered publishing my book. How much do you think that would have cost me, just for being a new author?"

Nothing. If you have a reputable agent, you aren't out-of-pocket AT ALL. He gets a 10-15% cut if he sells your book. In other words, when you get PAID TO BE PUBLISHED.

Mr. Tate isn't crazy. The people who give him thousands of dollars to "publish" their book are...

Lee

[Lonnie Friesen]

Tate Publishing is NOT a vanity press. With regards to the comment that legitimate publisher PAY YOU. Yes they do, IF your name happens to be Oprah or some equivilent, Or IF you're an expert in your field, or IF you're a published author. Tate also pays advances to authors who are previously published.

The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies. Try to get a vanity press to guarentee that! They are legitimate, and I have published with them and have just begun my marketing. Thus far I've had one newspaper, one magizine and one television spot and the book won't be on the market for another month. I've recieved phone calls from the governors office and have sold books in five states outside of my own from the publishers web site.

There's a lot of people afraid that someone will steal their work. I suppose if your book is the sum of all you know then you probably need to be concerned. But if you can put all you know inside one book, then Tate probably wouldn't want you anyway. So if they offered you a contract, it's because they believe in you, and you should too. Don't let fear be the primary decision factor, and don't listen to people who listen to their fear. Contact those who've published with Tate and find out their experiences and check them out on the BBB. Hands down, they have followed through on everything they promised.

[David J. Montgomery]

Lonnie's contentions are nonsense. Every author was once an unpublished author -- yet not every author paid someone to publish their book. This is just the kind of disinformation that the scam artists use to bilk the gullible out of their money. If there is an audience for your work, hold out for a legitimate publisher that will pay you, not the other way around. Don't get taken in by these scams.

[Lee Goldberg]

Lonnie writes: "The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies."

Oh, how generous of them.

You pay to be published and if you miraculously sell 5000 copies, and they have already made money off your book and the interest on what you paid them, they will give you back the $4000 no reputable, professional publisher would ever have asked you for in the first place.

What an unbelievable scam. Anyone who falls for it deserves to be bilked.

Lonnie writes: "So if they offered you a contract, it's because they believe in you, and you should too."

If that was true, Lonnie, they wouldn't ask you for $4000 to print your book for you (and have the gall to take a percentage of the sales on top of that!!).

If you believe in yourself, submit the book to a real publisher. NEVER PAY TO BE PUBLISHED. Every author -- myself included -- was an unpublished author to start with. I didn't buy my way in, and neither did John Patterson, Stephen King, Sue Grafton, Janet Evanovich or 99.9% of the now-bestselling authors out there.

Lee

[Lonnie Friesen]

You guys are being a bit to simplistic and frightened. You're using fear to get your point across because you're incapable of using logic.

Consider for instance politics: do you know how many different types of governments there are in the world? Are they all wrong except ours? It's very subjective.

Take any other type of business, are all hospitals alike? All banks, all of anything? Is everything in the world only one way? Is there only one right answer to every question that could ever be posed?

Publishers like any other industry have a wide variety of possible approaches. There are definitely scams, and a person should watch out for them. But whether or not I like their approach doesn't determine whether or not they're a scam.

Everyone is unpublished at one time. Absolutely true! But the world is constantly changing and how people approach it changes as well. It used to be ten years ago or so you couldn't submit a manuscript online. But today, technology has changed the way we do everything, including how publishers weed out the people who believe their wonderful theory on "Who shot JFK" should be published.

Saying, "NEVER PAY TO BE PUBLISHED" is like saying, "NEVER PAY TO OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"

I'm not a fan of self publishing, and I steer clear of it as far as I can, but not because it's bad, but because I don't have a marketing network to help me sell my book. Tate has offered me a three page marketing plan. But not all marketing plans are the same. Do you market political text books the same as a novel? Of course not. So a marketing plan is not a road map to success, and no publisher can guarantee you success. Tate certainly never led me to believe that I'm going to be rich. In fact Dr. Tate told me not to quit my day job. He also said, they would be investing 20K toward my publication. 4K is hardly enough money to publish and market a book, so even if an individual doubted the 20K, they can't deny that Tate would have to put forth something.

Vanity presses only publish books on demand, while Tate and other legitimate publisher publish 5000 copies on the first run and I believe the next three subsequent runs. After that they publish and warehouse 10,000 at a time. Why on earth would a vanity press pay money to storehouse your book? Warehouse space costs money as well. They way you can tell that hey are indeed warehousing the product is by the length of time it takes to deliver the product to your door. When my father ordered a copy from the publisher he got it in a week. Do you really think Tate cracked up the presses just to print off one copy for dear old dad? Let's not be ridiculous. Think about what you're saying and all of the ramifications of it.

I would encourage people to follow their dreams and to not settle on the first publisher you come to. Even if it is Tate. Educate yourself on the industry before submitting anything. But don't let fear be your guiding passion, let knowledge, discretion and prudence be the tools you use to determine things. Don't accept the advice of a jaded bitter wanna be. It's not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not a scam. Go to the book stores and do some research on publishers that publish your kind of book. Then submit it to them and see what happens. If you don't like Tate, fine, look around and check it out. But don't let years pass you by. It only takes one year to publish a book and get it to market from beginning to end.

Good luck fellas!

[Lonnie Friesen]

You know, I was thinking about something Lee wrote: "Lonnie writes: 'The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies.' Oh, how generous of them."

Why is that so hard to believe? You're asking a publisher to put up ALL the money and pay you a royalty. Not a bad gig if you can get it. It's kind of like the guy who has a great idea and goes to a Venture Capitolist to get it funded because he donesn't have enough money to do it.

But wait... does every successful business in the world use venture capitol? No. So there are many options, of which that is one legitimate option, and some people are lucky enough to find them.

Initially, I think this business has nothing to do with skill or talent, it has to do with luck. Once you get that on your side, then the talent and skill can keep you there. Scams can be detected by asking, who owns the copyright? For Publish America, they do, for Tate Publishing, you do.

You know, using your head, just a little bit, can save you a lot of head ache. But if an individual doesn't want to go through the work of investigating publishers, then they shouldn't be writing.

Most of us are not fortunate enough to just write. We also have other jobs, and other lives. But to get published means deadlines and contracts and edits, etc. If you miss the deadline, what effect does that have on the publisher? "Stop the presses Bob, author Johnny Wanna-be didn't get things to us in time, so you'll have to send your crew home until we get his manuscript back." Do wanna-be authors ever think about that? The $4000 Tate asks for is to guarentee that you'll complete your part. Writing a manuscript is only the beginning. That took me four months, but publishing it, with deadlines and all took another six. If you want to be an author, you must be committed to the process, not just the fame you hope to achieve.

Once again, I wish you all luck!

[JT Barker]

Leon, you say, "Tate is unique in the publishing world. The author retains complete rights to their book and they do charge a fee. There’re no other fees added. No marketing fees, no PR fees."

I've been published by some of the best traditional publishers in the US and NONE charge a fee of ANY SORT...no marketing fee, no PR fee, NO FEE AT ALL. You may love Tate and they may love you but "unique" isn't quite the word I'd use.

Lonnie, you say, "The $4000 Tate asks for is to guarentee that you'll complete your part. Writing a manuscript is only the beginning. That took me four months, but publishing it, with deadlines and all took another six."

Legitimate traditional book publishers have in their contracts what will happen if an author doesn't complete his/her ms or edits on time. They DO NOT take $4,000 to "guarentee" (sic) anything. That's a total rip off. Then you say writing is only the beginning..explain again what else you as the writer has to do? Make corrections after the book's been copy-edited of course, but what else? You make it sound like Tate wants you to be involved in the actual publication of the book, too. Is that right? If so, what do they want you to do? What is this "process" to which a writer must be committed? I'm not talking post-publication promotion, for most writers will want to have signings, attend conventions, have reviews, etc.

[JT Barker]

Lonnie also said, "You're asking a publisher to put up ALL the money and pay you a royalty."

Exactly! That's how real publishers do it. A writer creates a product (the book) and the publisher wants to publish it to make money. So....the publisher pays you in advance for your product (the book), and then gives you royalties once and only when your advance has been earned back.

[Tim Keeley]

I find it rather humourous that there are a many grammatical errors on this page as there are, especially from writers. In that respect, is Tate just taking in anyone who can type letters onto a screen? "Hi, my name is jon and i cannt spll worth a crap and use majer run on sentence and sound like Zero Wing's translation when I wrote."

I was 'accepted' at Tate. So what. I also don't have 4k to spend, nor would I given the option. Why?

Like everyone thinking individual on this discussion, putting money into 8 years of work that I alone have done is ridiculous. Ridiculous!!

I will be calling them up to bargain. I will tell them that if my book is indeed as good as they say it is, they should be willing to meet me more than halfway since they'd make most of the royalty off it in the end regardless of how much I put into it!

I am currently with lulu.com on self publishing. I am not at all happy but it's a lot happier at the moment ithout the 4,000 smacks I'd be putting into Tate.

If someone from Tate or with Tate would like to counter my opinion, I am more than willing to take advice.

Tim

[Lonnie]

You know... as I read some of the responses, I'm rethinking some of my thoughts. Perhaps you're right, Tate made a huge mistake offering contracts to any johnny genius with a new theory on who shot JFK. It's a good thing you guys were smart enough not to fall for it! After all there's only one way to do anything right, and that's your way. No other options could or should ever be considered. Because the "right" way is always the way you think it should be. It must be great being you!

[Dee]

I am a newbee!!! I have written a series of children's books and am ready to send to Tate. On the other hand, a children's literary agency has requested to see my work. Better to go with an agency or a publisher from the get go??? Who has got ideas?

[JT Barker]

Lonnie...options should always be considered. And then those options that take advantage of you should be discarded.

Feel free to have Tate continue to print your books. Feel free to continue to give them money for whatever reasons they tell you they need it. And yes, I'm glad I didn't "fall for it."

Is it great being me? Absolutely. We should all feel it's great being who we are. And none of that has anything to do with our views on Tate.

Dee...is she/he a legitimate agent? Check him/her out first. One thing to watch for - does he/she require a fee? If so, find another agent. Good agents and good publishers do NOT take money to read, critique, nor to publish. Don't be in a rush. Talk to writers who have published extensively with legitimate/traditional publishers and listen to their advice.

Now, if you want to see your book "in the flesh" no matter what, I'd suggest you check out lulu.com or some other self-publishing companies that don't take $4,000 up front but charge you per book. It's not publishing in the real sense, it's printing. But you'll have some books in hand when all is said and done. And you won't have been taken advantage of...you will have paid for a product and will have received it.

[Lonnie]

Dee,

Agents are middlemen trying to get the best deal they can for you, while getting enough to cover their own expenses. It ultimately depends upon what you're comfortable with. There's a multitude of ways to slice this thing, just like there's a multitude of cars you could buy. But once you make a choice, you need to feel good with it, because you're going to live with it for a number of years.

I can't afford an agent, but that doesn't mean they're wrong, just another avenue to consider. Have your agent friend look at it, but I wouldn't sign anything until you're confident they can do for you what you would like to see done.

Tate works with you whether you have an agent or not, sos that part doesn't matter. You might let this agent try to see if they can get you published as a first time author with Tate WITHOUT having to pay the up front fee of 4K. that would be a good test of their ability. But you'll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job. They might be just as successful going to another publisher. Ultimately the royalties I see in the industry range from 7% to 25% depending upon who you are and how well know you are. I've got 15%. Is that good? I think so; perhaps your agent friend would think different. Maybe tell your friend their comission is anything over 15% and let them see what they can do. Tate's OK, don't be afraid, but look around so you feel good about your choice. Then don't look back, until the end of your contract, and then consider if you made the right decision.

Best of luck to you.

[JT Barker]

Lonnie said, "You might let this agent try to see if they can get you published as a first time author with Tate WITHOUT having to pay the up front fee of 4K. that would be a good test of their ability. But you'll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job."

Lonnie, Lonnie, Lonnie. Where are you getting your information? First of all...an agent may not sell a book because it's not a poorly written book, not because they don't have the "ability" to sell books. Second, you say, "you'll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job." Really? Did you read my post? I'm talking from real life publishing experience, having been in the business as a professional for 24 years. I've NEVER paid a legitimate agent; the agent takes his/her cut once the publisher has paid the advance and the royalties. An legitimate agent does not get paid for submissions he/she makes on behalf of the writer. Don't pass along "urban legends," please.

15% royalty is a good rate, IF you didn't have to pay thousands of dollars for some silly upfront fee.

You say you can't afford an agent. What does that mean? Let me repeat: an agent works for the writer; he/she makes money for the writer. The writer does not pay any sort of fee to the agent. If that's the case, it's a rip off, set up to take advantage of folks who don't understand how it should work.

[JT Barker]

Let me correct a typo. I said, "First of all...an agent may not sell a book because it's not a poorly written book, not because they don't have the 'ability' to sell books."

This should read, "First of all...an agent may not sell a book because it's a poorly written book, not because they don't have the 'ability"'to sell books."

[JT Barker]

And again, let me clarify in case my last paragraph is not clear...

An agent does not take an upfront fee; the money or "fee" he/she makes comes from the money the writer makes. They are not paid ahead of time for any submissions. I've never heard the complaint that one cannot "afford" an agent.

Dee, good luck.

[lee goldberg]

Jason Pinter offered this advice in another discussion here, but I think it's worth repeating for anyone considering blowing their money with Tate...
----------------------
Having worked in publishing, with actual editorial experience at three "big publishing" houses, I thought I'd dispel a few myths that have been bandied about here. In my five years in editorial, I acquired both fiction and non-fiction. I've sat in hundreds of editorial meetings, and gotten thousands of submissions from reputable--and disreputable--agents. This is not to toot any sort of horn, but merely to offer proof that I know what I'm talking about. Anyway:

1) Amazon, despite what Yvonne says, is not a distributor. They are a retailer. There is a huge difference. A distributor buys x number of books from a publisher, then "distributes" them among their sales channels. Levy is an example of a distributor. Ingram is a distributor. Distributors have a financial stake in the success of the book. If it does not sell, they lose money.

2) Amazon is 'not' the preferred distributor, or retailer, or anything like that. They are a piece of the puzzle, sure, but as of today only about 3%-5% of that puzzle. Brick and mortar stores, with few exceptions, are the most important part of the puzzle (though big box stores, like Sam's Club and BJ's are growing in importance). It costs Amazon nothing to put up a page for a self-published book, and it certainly doesn't mean they have to order any copies. If a self-published book doesn't sell any copies on Amazon, they lose nothing but the time it took to post the page.

3) There are authors who benefit from self-publishing, but they are extremely rare. They are, with very few exceptions, non-fiction authors who have either a substantial platform or take part in many speaking engagements at which to sell their books. In this case, they benefit from increased royalties. Many NF authors that publish with traditional publishers actually negotiate to buy back a certain amount of copies--at a large discount--in order to both sell at their lectures as well as in B&M stores. Though yes, it is true that sometimes publishers do acquire a book solely because the author commits to a substantial buyback. Yes this is cynical publishing, but publishing is a business, and publishers do what they need to do to stay in business.

4) Big name publishing is only watching if you make them watch. The fact of the matter is, when a self-published novel comes in on submission, it is assumed, often correctly, that the novel could not find a mainstream publisher. Yes, there are self-published novels that are well-written and do eventually land contracts, but again they are exceedingly few and far between. Anyone who thinks self-publishing is the best route to getting a mainstream contract, give me a ring, I have some real estate to sell you...

5) "Big Publishing" generally takes longer to publish books because it takes months to properly sell and promote the book to their accounts. Any publisher, if they wanted to could, put out a book out lickity split. In fact, those books are called "crash books," and they're only done if a book is especially timely and/or publicity driven. But if you print a book in a month just because you can, Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon, etc...wouldn't take diddly squat because they'd have no reason to.

6) Publishers do drop the ball. That's the way it works, unfortunately. Good books go unread and don't get the promotion they need or deserve, and bad books become monster bestsellers. Hell, "Fools Gold" was #1 at the box office.

7) There's no doubt publishing is changing, though change is certainly taking its time. The Kindle might be doing well relatively, but ebooks are such a small fraction of book sales (like 1% of 1%) that it's far too early in the device's release for it to have made anywhere near a dent, or even a smudge, on the market.

Just a few thoughts.

[lee goldberg]

Lonnie's comments are inane. Everyone can "afford" an agent. A legitimate, reputable agent doesn't charge ANY fees at all. He gets a commission of what you make from the deals he negotiates for you.

There is a big difference between giving an agent 15% of the $15,000 advance that a publisher PAYS ME to publish my book and PAYING Tate $5000 up front to publish my book -- which 99 times out of 100 will NEVER earn back my investment.

In the agent scenario, I am MAKING MONEY. In the Tate scenario, I AM LOSING IT. The agent gets paid when I get paid. I am not taking ANY financial risk.

Lee

[Donna]

I recently submitted a children's story to Tate, and when I received the offer in the mail I was beside myself with joy. Then, I read the contract, and discovered that I had to pay an investment fee.
I've been to enough workshops and seminars to know that a you don't pay a publisher. So, naturally I declined their offer.
Hey, if somebody else wants to travel down that road, so be it. It's just not something I want to get involved with.
-Donna

[Cleavon]

Lonnie says "Don't accept the advice of a jaded bitter wanna be. It's not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not a scam."

Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna-be. Have you seen the list of books he's written and had published by genuine publishers? I'll take his advice over yours, especially when yours is as bad as "it's not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not as scam." You're so right, Lonnie. It's much better to be screwed out of 4K by a vanity press that hides behind Christian values.

[Lonnie Friesen]

Well, we've got a little communication going!

Cleavon, you are correct, Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna be! I personally don't know of him, but my daughter is very familar with his work and says, "Hi!"

I don't know JT Barker either, but that does mean anything, he sounds intelligent and well educated on the process.

In fact I don't know any of you, but the one thing I do know, is that ranting about Tate is stupid. Do I have all the answers on this? No way. You would be better to listen to Lee or RT, with one exception; and guys perhaps you can talk me through this. I respect intelligent answers, not rants. Just because a person has the capacity to speak or write, doesn't make him intelligent. Your last couple responses I thought were excellent. Especially the pieces on agents.

I'm a computer programmer, so I need you to walk me through this logically. I don't assume either of you were born with a golden spoon in your mouth and handed your careers, you worked hard for it. I assume writing is all you do. (None of this is intended to be sarcastic, so bear with me.) When you started out submitting manuscripts 25 years ago, you typed them on a type writer; there was nothing like the internet. Now, the world has changed. How have submissions changed in the process?

When you call someone a scam, I interpret that to mean they take my money and give me nothing in return. Do you have the same definition?

Self publishing is not a scam, but it's also not for everybody. Do you agree?

Traditional publishing is great! But not everybody takes new authors. How do you get in there then? I'm busy working everyday, like everyone else and involved with other things, writing is only one of them. If I were 25 again and had no responsibility but to succeed at writing, I could probably learn and know the things you guys do. Have you ever been 50 and starting down a new path? In this world? It's not cut and dry.

If I pay money and get something in return am I being scammed? I don't see Tate as the be all and end all. I see them as a step in the process of beginning. We can't all be 25 again and start over. Some of us have to be 50 and start over, in a world that wasn't the same as when you guys started. Options have become more complicated and varied, not simplified and concise. I'm not a 15 year girl surfing the net who knows who Lee Goldberg is. I have a job like everybody else. I don't sacrifice my marriage for a career, so therefore I have only one wife not three or more. That takes time and effort to maintain while goign doen this other road.

I don't know if you guys really appreciate all the effort people go through to make it in this day and age. I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't hear the connection come across in any of the words you've written.

Where are these agents and traditional publishers? The yellow pages? The internet? Are they standing along the roadside? I suppose a person has to start asking the question of those who know where to look. That's why I do appreciate RT and Lee, and I do respect their opinon, but I need logic not emotion. Give me a name and number of the agent you use and I'll call them today. Educate me. But no rants on Tate. I'm getting what I paid for, and I'm OK. Maybe I was wrong, but it doesn't matter. Mistakes are part of the process, and this hasn't proved itself out to be a mistake yet.

If you want to take pot shots, go ahead, I'll back away and leave you alone. But if you're serious about this and not just trashing every who disagrees with you, then give me a name and a number, or even an address and we'll begin a serious dialog. Otherwise what's the point? It's like those who spend their life saying, "There's the problem." But spedn not one minute considering a solution.

By the way JT, you asked about what else a writer has to do? None of this hard mind you, but it all requires time, and that's just a reality. From the time I signed the contract I had reread my manuscript probably a dozen times or more. There was the editing, the back matter, the cover art, the puctuation, etc. All part of the process, but it still took six months. I didn't just hand it off to Tate and they took it from there. I know you know these things, but I wonder if perhaps you forgot what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I'm not attacking you, so take it easy. I just don't hear the connection in your voice.

Lonnie

[Lonnie Friesen]

RT,

I checked out Lulu and it appears to me to be a self publisher. Is that correct? Not that that's bad, but certainly that's not how you got your start. Is it?

Tell us about your first contract. How did it go down? What were the royalties? What did your agent do or not do that caused you to learn from the process? Who was your publisher? Once again, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.

Lulu was OK, but I'd rather pay Tate to do all that for me. Now I'm published and they're setting up signings. They've done what I paid them to do. I don't plan to get rich, this will never be my career move, but it's a piece to a much larger puzzle. How I get there is not quite as important to me as getting there. Money to me is secondary, but I understand for others it's a much bigger deal. But I seriously want to know more about your first deal.

Thanks, Lonnie

[Lee Goldberg]

Lonnie,

David Montgomery posted the following in another discussion but I think his points are appropriate here as well:
----------------------
If a self-published author spends $10,000 to publish his book (a reasonable figure), he'd have to sell 2857 copies (at $3.50 net profit each) to break even.

That's assuming, of course, that the author doesn't value his time as worth anything. (One assumes that the labor involved with running a self-publishing operation is considerable.)

Obviously most self-published books can't accomplish that sales figure. But if it could, the author could more than likely sell it to a traditional publisher, and probably expect to get an advance of at least $10,000 (minus an agent's commission, for a net of $8500).

In order to recoup the $10,000 investment and match a $8,500 advance, the self-published author would have to sell 5286 copies.

Of course, if the author can sell 5286 copies, that same book, traditionally published, would earn royalties of approximately $15,858. Net of an agent's commission, that comes to $13,479 paid to the author.

In the self-published scenario, the author invests $10,000 and has a profit of $8500. In the traditionally published scenario, the author invests $0 and has a profit of $13,479 -- 59% greater with no financial risk involved.

Consider two more factors: the self-published author is spending considerable time operating as a publisher, rather than a writer, in this scenario. In addition, any book that can sell 5000 copies as a self-published novel could likely sell many more with the support of a traditional publishing house -- thus making the author even more money.

(This doesn't even consider those authors who reap advances greater than $10,000, which is a lot of them.)

So even if a self-published author can hit one out of the park and sell 5k copies, the numbers just don't add up.

(Before someone points out: "Yeah, but what if you can't get a traditional publisher to take your book." If a novel is marketable enough to sell 5k copies self-published, I believe in nearly all cases that a traditional publisher would take it.)

[JT Barker]

Lonnie said, "By the way JT, you asked about what else a writer has to do? None of this hard mind you, but it all requires time, and that's just a reality. From the time I signed the contract I had reread my manuscript probably a dozen times or more. There was the editing, the back matter, the cover art, the puctuation, etc. All part of the process, but it still took six months. I didn't just hand it off to Tate and they took it from there. I know you know these things, but I wonder if perhaps you forgot what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I'm not attacking you, so take it easy. I just don't hear the connection in your voice."

I reply, writing certainly takes time. No disagreement there. Rewriting and rewriting, prior to submitting the ms for publication, is the job of the writer. Then once a book has been accepted by a publisher, and then copy edited, the job of the writer is to correct typos and inconsistencies (this includes punctuation.)

However, a writer shouldn't have to be responsible for the cover art. That's the job of the publisher. The back matter is also the job of the publisher, although on occasion they may ask for input. Publishers/editors are the ones who are supposed to know how to best market your work; they should have professional illustrators, designers, and marketing personnel on staff to take care of these things. You suggest I might have forgotten what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I haven't forgotten doing some of those things because I never had to, even with my very first novel. I was sent cover flats when they were done, complete with cover art and back cover copy. Were those responsibilities assigned to you in your contract?

Not to worry, I certainly don't feel attacked. My energetic response was merely my attempt to get you to think about what you were saying in light of new information. And, Lonnie, you said you respect intelligent answers, not rants. Yet it was you who said, "Because the 'right' way is always the way you think it should be. It must be great being you!" I wasn't attacking you, just responding to incorrect information being touted as correct. I'm sure if you were very certain about something, as I am about the way legitimate agents work, and someone was giving false information or partial truths, you would want to set the record straight.

All the best.

[JT Barker]

Lonnie, you also said, "Where are these agents and traditional publishers? The yellow pages? The internet? Are they standing along the roadside? I suppose a person has to start asking the question of those who know where to look."

Have you tried the most current edition of The Writers Market? Have you attended writers conferences and conventions? Explore a bookstore and find books that are similar in content to what you have written. Are you impressed with the publisher? If so, look them up and contact them. This could be your market.

No one handed me the phone number of an agent or a publishing house. I sought them out myself. It's not easy. It takes patience, time, and determination. But such a learning experience is well worth it in the long run.

[Cleavon]

Lonnie says "Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna be! I personally don't know of him, but my daughter is very familar with his work and says, "Hi!"

So what are you doing on his blog!? And now that you're here, you didn't notice his books on the column to the right? That says more about you than anything. You are posting on his blog, and yet you "don't know of him." Wouldn't you want to before you associate yourself with him? This comment of yours is indicative how ill-informed and lazy you are, even when the facts are right in your face. No wonder you don't see the enormous pitfalls of handing 4K to Tate. Your eyes are closed.