Another Day in FanFic

Meljean Brook readily admits that her DC Comics-based  fanfic is a violation of copyright...but that she writes them anyway.

The first question is: isn't it illegal?

Yes. There's no getting around that. I am using copyrighted characters, and using them to write stories. The characters are owned by DC Comics, the copyrights are current and valid....

And yet I wrote them anyway.

Don't I have any sensibilities? Any notion of right and wrong? Any inkling of what it is to own a character? Why copyright infringement is a horrible thing to do?

The answer is: Yes. I do. Stealing ideas and claiming them as my own is the worst form of plagiarism.

I don't claim them as my own—I know exactly where the credit for their creation lies. Did I write them? Yes. Do I own them? Nope. Anyone who wants them can have them.

Does that little disclaimer at the beginning of every fic that says "I don't make any money from these" absolve me of responsibility? No, I still violated copyrights.

So if she has so much respect for copyright, why did she do it? Because she simply couldn't help herself.

Using someone else's character and making that character behave in ways the creator/copyright holder would never have condoned/conceived is revolting. How dare I write about Batman and Wonder Woman becoming romantically linked? How dare I write a slash fiction parody involving Batman and Superman?

The answer is: I didn't know what else to do. I'm a writer—I may not be a very good one, but it is what I do. When Batman and Wonder Woman grabbed a hold of me, they didn't let go, and I had to write it. There were stories in my head, and I told them on paper like I do every other story in my head.

And because I'm a geek, and because I had no one else to talk to about this, I put it on the Internet.

I've heard a lot of inane justifications for writing fanfic, but this is the winner. She knows she's using characters that aren't her own, that she's disrespecting the authors right to control their own creations, but none of that really matters... because she's "a writer," so she had no other choice but to write the story and post it in the net.  She had to do it. It was an undeniable compulsion.

Because she's "a writer."

No, Meljean, you're not. You don't have the slightest inking of what it means to be a writer or any respect for other writers.  A writer creates characters and stories  and respects the creative rights of his colleagues. You are a plagiarist. A creative parasite. To call yourself "a writer" to justify your creative theft and Internet publication of your work disrespects every real writer you steal from.

Now I know what you're going to say..."I used fanfic to learn my craft. I am a writer now. A professional writer. I have a novella coming out from Berkley and I'm working on a novel.   So there!"

Uh-huh.

So why do you still proudly post all your fanfic on your site? A real writer would have more respect for her peers. A real writer -- an adult --  would know better.

Grow up already.

Comments

[Candy]

I'm going to be brutally blunt here: see those panties? Unbunch 'em. See how much comfortable it is now? Mmmmm-hah.

I'm going to be all obnoxious and pull some definitions:

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Pronunciation: 'plA-j&-"rIz also -jE-&-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -rized; -riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
transitive senses : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source

How is fanfic plagiarism? All the writers provide credit where it's due. What fanfic writer out there claims "I CREATED BATMAN"? Please. Somebody who reads fanfic and somehow thinks Ima Ficwriter created Buffy the Vampire Slayer either lives under a rock, or needs to up her Haldol dosage. The writers use existing characters, and yes, that's copyright infringement--assuming the work isn't public domain, that is. But the stories they come up with are generally original. Now if somebody wrote Marvel fanfic that was a thinly-disguised reworking of the Dark Phoenix arc and tried to pass that off as an original story, THAT would be plagiarism. How many fanfic writers try to pull of that kind of stunt, though? I have no doubt they're out there, but my guess is: very few.

Here's another definition:

Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

I'm assuming that definition number 1 doesn't apply in this case, but definitions 2 and 3 do. Let's see: fanfic writers don't make money through their fanfic. In fact, given the time, effort and money fanfic writers spend on what they do, they end up LOSING money. Fanfic writers are often dedicated, insanely loyal consumers of the products provided by the original creators, ditto fanfic readers. Fanfic, if anything, increases the value of the franchise and keeps it fresh and a viable concern, long after the original series is gone or the author is dead. So yeah, parasitism? I'd say saprophytism is a better term for some forms of fanfic, while symbiosis would be a better fit for most others.

I don't read or write fanfic (I don't write fiction, period); I'm just a bitch who is kind of annoyed at the borderline-rabid black-or-white reasoning I'm seeing you apply in this one instance, when generally you seem like a pretty reasonable guy. "If you're a fanfic writer, you're not a real writer nor can you have ANY IDEA what it means to be a real writer." Pffffff.

[HelenKay]

Candy - You were much nicer on my blog..... Again, I have to point on that whether or not the fanfic "author" gets paid is not the point. It's not even relevant. Further, the original author - the real and only author - might not want the type of publicity you're talking about. The property, the characters/plot/story taken by the fanfic without permission, belongs to someone else. Someone else created that work. That person is the writer. And Lee is right, if folks are admitting they're violating copyright law, why is it okay to do it? I know we agreed to disagree yesterday but the "oh well" defense isn't good enough or shouldn't be.

And, it's Lee's blog. If he wants to bunch whatever, that's his choice.

[David J. Montgomery]

Why do fanficcers inevitably seem to gravitate to sex between the characters?

As for Candy's comments on plagiarism... fanficcers do claim that their stories are their own, despite the fact that they've stolen the basis for them, so that would fit the meaning of the word.

[Candy]

I do realize the irony of telling people to disentangle their underwear when I obviously need to unbunch mine. Hee!

I was nicer at your blog because you didn't make unwarranted personal attacks, and you maintained a very reasonable tone throughout. If you'd called all fanfic writers parasites and made other insupportable claims, then I would've busted with the snark too. I mean, suddenly Lee KNOWS exactly what Meljean's experiences, and he's able to definitively dismiss her as being worthless?

As for the filthy lucre aspect of fanfic: when somebody accuses fanfic writers of parasitism, then absolutely the monetary aspect becomes relevant, because that implies that fanfic writers are somehow benefitting financially from the arrangement. Parasites are also more often than not detrimental to the host's health, and I was trying to point out that if the canon is the "host", fanfic isn't doing a whole lot of harm, and in many instances is doing good.

I've already gone on ad nauseam at your blog that I think there's no doubt fanfic violates copyright laws and therefore is technically an illegal activity; whether I think it's morally wrong is another matter entirely. What's legal vs. what's ethical are not sets that intersect perfectly--not for everybody, anyway. It certainly doesn't for me in this case. Why is it OK to speed on an empty highway? Why is it OK for Longmire to make fun of romance novel covers by giving them alternative titles? Why is it OK to goof off occasionally at work instead of sticking my nose to the grindstone for the full 9 hours I'm here?

And yes, it's certainly Lee's right to say WHATEVER he wants on his blog; likewise, I believe I have a right to state my opinion in the comments section, whether that's agreement with what he's saying or calling him on his shit and disagreeing. I do realize that ultimately, this is his space and he's free to delete my comments or ban me from further commenting. *shrug*

[Candy]

David: Do fanfic writers actually claim that the whole universe and the characters that populate their fanfic are their own, or do they just claim that the situations they put their characters in are the original work? Isn't "plagiarism" a bit strong? I'd say "derivative" would be a much more accurate term.

[David J. Montgomery]

I think "theft" sums it up nicely.

[andy]

From what I've read and seen, fanfic strikes me as the literary equivalent of a cover band.

Cover bands take the work of others and generally add little or nothing new or interesting to it - in fact, they often make it worse (except for Brown Eyed Girl, because, really, it's rather lame as it is and far too simple a song to truly botch).

For that reason, I'm not compelled to go see a cover band or to read fanfic - or to get overly excited about either. Of course, no one has ever covered one of my songs or copied my writing, so there you go.

[Bryon]

What about spec scripts for existing television shows? Writers are taking characters that aren't their own and putting them in situations the creator hasn't granted them the right to do. They also claim these creations as their own. They copyright them. And there are plenty of them to be found on the web. Is this illegal?

[Mark A. York]

Nobody ever sees them.

[Meljean]

I've never been a winner before; I'll take a medal in the inane category, I don't mind.

And, okay, I won't call myself a writer anymore. I don't respect a lot of people, so if not respecting DC's copyright enough makes me a non-writer, I can accept that.

Let me make this really easy for you: (212) 636-5595. That's the fax number to DC Comics's Rights and Permissions department. I'll even pay for the call.

Here's the letter:

Dear DC Comics:

A fan (I won't call her a writer) has used your characters to write fictional stories, and has distributed them on the Internet for all and sundry to read.

Please send her a cease-and-desist letter; I know you must be as outraged as I am. Her e-mail address is meljean@meljeanbrook.com, and she writes...I mean, she _hacks_ under the pen name Meljean Brook. (In case the legal department needs it, her real name is Melissa Khan.)

Thank you.

[An Author]

I think you're drawing lines a bit too strictly.

First, let me say that I'm a professional author and have been selling original fiction for 18 years. In the past four, I've also written fanfic on the side. Just for the record, I'm 40 years old -- rather long in the tooth for a fanfic author -- and in RL, I write mainstream.

I don't regard what I do as plagiarism because actual plagiarism means to take exact wording (and you know that, or should). Derivative could apply, and clearly does, in some cases. But I think *folk art* comes closer -- that's really what I regard fanfic to be. Folk art. And like folk art, some is spectacular. Most isn't. ;>

Furthermore, there are types of fanfic within the larger umbrella, depending on the source material. Myself, I never have (and never will) write fanfic based on the stories of a SINGLE creator/author, unless that creator were to make it very clear that s/he was okay with it. The 'world' for which I write is a world with multiple creators, and wherein the creators have (in fact) okayed fanfic. It's not regarded as competitive, but complementary (and complimentary, too). So no, I don't feel guilty about it in the least. I DO, in fact, pay attention to these things because I, too, make a living as a creator. If the creators were ever to say, "Stop doing it," I would.

The source material of fanfic varies a great deal from fiction written by a single author to TV shows, movies, and even comics (as in the DC comics mentioned). For the bulk of these, there are *multiple* creators, and multiple changes and shifts across several years (even decades) -- some of which may include "retcons" of previous events. No single person DOES own those characters, or that world, and different writers may portray characters differently. These are shared worlds with input that ranges from producer to screen writer to director to actors, or writer to artist to inker to series editor. We're *not* dealing with the vision of a single author or creator.

That's an important distinction. And no, I'm not "justifying" or splitting hairs. It IS an important distinction, as anyone who's ever participated in a collaboration knows.

As for the quality of fanfic -- yes, much of it is poorly written, but I don't need to quote Sturgeon's Law to you, do I? ;> And as you no doubt know, most young writers in creative writing classes or writing groups are not much (if any) better. Nor is the average slushpile at Publishing House of Your Choice. There's a lot of bad writing period, whether the 'folk art' of fanfic, or original fiction. But there are gems among them -- just like a slushpile. I have certainly read fanfiction that was not just publishable quality, but *damn good*. (And I'm not the only published author moonlighting on the side, either.)

I realize that I am an oddity compared to many fanfic authors -- but the fact that I exist should indicate that the lines you've drawn are not so simple. Nor am I unique. An oddity, yes; unique -- no.

I find that writing fanfic is rather akin to writing historical fiction, in terms of the skills involved. There are certain givens around which one constructs a story. That takes a particular kind of skill. And when one is dealing with worlds that have been constructed by multiple creators, then the skill of the writer lies in the *composition*. This is also like ancient Greek epic poetry and tragic theatre. Homer didn't 'write' the ILIAD. He composed the version that became the most popular take on that part of the Trojan Cycle. He inserted his own takes (and tweaks) on the traditional story and characters. Achilles is not Homer's creation, but Homer's *take* on Achilles is particular and unique.

That's what (the best) fanfiction does. I'd like to think it's what I do (as arrogant as it might seem to compare one's self to Homer!). When I construct a story, I borrow the 'world' and the 'characters,' but then elaborate on them, *recreate* them, and *compose* something new, and -- yes -- original.

If this is merely derivative or plagiaristic, then we should all be so derivative as Homer ... or Euripides ... or Shakespeare. ;>

I hope this (anonymous) opinion from a 'real' (paid, professional) author who also dabbles in fanfic might give you something more to chew on. The question that I get most often from the (few) who know that I do both is "Why are you wasting your time!?" ... which typically translates to "Why are you writing for free what you could earn money for!?" But see, I never wrote to earn money. It's a happy chance that I can. I write because I love to tell stories ... and share them. Even when I work in someone else's sandbox, the plot, the twist on characterization ... yes, that's mine. And I think it's just as original as much of what I've written for pay. I recently completed a novel-length fanfic piece of which I'm as proud, if not more so, than anything I've written for pay. Like Homer, like Euripides -- or like a historical fiction author -- I don't just puppet the characters, I take the template then make them my own.

Why do I do this with characters that 'belong' to somebody else (or several somebodies), rather than stick strictly to my own? I find it *fun* ... simple as that. I love the characters, and the world, and I try to do interesting things with them. It's a tribute, not theft. No, I get no pay -- nor do I want any. What DO I get? Enjoyment at telling the story. It's a *hobby*, it just happens that my 'hobby' is the same thing I do for a (partial) living.

Cheers!

[David J. Montgomery]

Why anonymous? If there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, why be ashamed of it?

[kete]

Well, finally some writers seem to get an idea of what fanfic is all about and start using it accordingly:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/halseanderson/19360.html

And yes, it has been said a hundred times, but fanficcers do for free what writers like Lee do for money when they write tie-in novels. The only difference lies in the legality - regarding the creative aspects it's the same.

And I think the simple fact *who* is protesting fanfic the most can tell you a lot about those writers.

kete

[frakman]

The link in the comment above takes you to an author's website... the author and his publisher are having a contest and award some money to whoever can write the best prequel or sequel to the events in his book.

The big difference between this and fanfiction is that the author and publisher are authorizing the work...soliciting it in fact. They have the author's consent. Let me repeat it so it sinks in: THEY HAVE THE AUTHOR'S CONSENT.

The vast majority of fanfiction steals characters and situations from authors/screenwriter without their consent or involvement.

Once again, Kete drags out the lame tie-in argument. . Listen up, dimwits. Here's the big different between tie-ins and fanfiction:

TIE IN WRITERS HAVE THE CONSENT OF THE AUTHORS. The creators (or owners) of the characters control the tie-in and its distribution. The creators/owners approve of the book...they are involved in its development.

WEST WING creator Aaron Sorkin didn't go on the net and say "Hey, I'd like to see stories where President Bartlett is ass-fucking Josh."

[David J. Montgomery]

That would probably be the only thing that would get me to watch The West Wing.

[KS]

DC Comics is hardly crying foul about her fanfic, so why are you? Devin Grayson, who currently writes Nightwing's title and has written on many other DC titles previously, was a fanfic writer (and still is, by her own admission). Meljean, the writer you're mocking, was "discovered" by a fan of her fanfic, who just happened to be an editor. In fact, there was another instance of a fanfic-writer-turned "pro," much more recent, but I don't know the details.

When the people who have been maligned and their fellow publishers are hiring these horrible "non" writers, it's a bit difficult to buy into your argument.

[Jocelyn]

Oh, Lee, Lee, Lee, are you STILL on about this? You truly just don't GET it, do you?

1) Yes, she IS a writer. Maybe not a good one, maybe even a godawful one (I don't know, I haven't read her stories) but to put a pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard and tell a story is to write. Even plagiarism is writing. Call it bad writing if you must, but don't deny what it is.

2) We can go backward, forward, and sideways for weeks over the legalities of fanfiction, but I won't change your mind and you won't change mine--we did this back in October when you said I was pathetic because I've been writing fanfic for 13 years. There are LOTS of legal arguments that support a fanwriter's position. There are also many arguments that support yours. Until it gets hashed out by the courts in its full fanwriter vs. author glory, we won't know for certain.

3) BUT...still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that's one type of "harm" that the courts have never recognized. JK Rowling has spoken very highly of fans who want to explore aspects of Harry Potter that she doesn't get to in her books. What are the stories in wizard history? Are there other wizard schools in the the Americas or Asia or Australia? What are the backstories of the other characters? These are questions the fans love to know, and most authors just don't have the time to answer them all. How does it harm the author for a fan to write a story surrounding his/her own theory to answer those questions?

4) And fanfic is a good way to learn your craft, as I tried to persuade you before, but you obviously still don't understand. I'll never try to SELL my fanstories--that WOULD be disrespectful and wrong, but I've had thousands of readers give me comments and feedback on plot development, characterization, and just basic writing mechanics. And my first original novel is now going well--unless you're going to say I'm a plagiarist and disrespectfully ripping off Plutarch by writing a novel about the founding of Rome!

Allow me to recapitulate. As Emily Dickinson once said, "to write is to write is to write." We are all writers. The legality of fanfiction is a murky issue with no clear and set answers. Fanwriting does not harm the original author whose work is its base, provided it's not being sold or passed off as the original product. Fanwriting is educational, fun, a good community activity.

There are far worse hobbies in the world. I fully intend to publish the novel I'm working on, but I will never stop fanwriting.

[Lee Goldberg]

Jocelyn wrote:

"3) BUT...still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that's one type of "harm" that the courts have never recognized."

I do. The authors do. But you've chosen to ignore it.

Forget the legalities for a moment (which shouldn't be hard for you...fanficcers do that as a given). What gives YOU the right to decide just how "harmed" an author is by having his characters stolen and used in ways he has no control over? Who assigned YOU creative control of someone else's characters?

Harm is not necessarily measure in dollars, Jocelyn. Who are you, someone who had nothing to do with the creation of the characters,to decide how they are used? What astonishing arrogance.

Someone created the characters fanficcer steal... NOT YOU... how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work.

If you love the characters so much, why don't you show the authors a little respect? Don't you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property?

But fanficcers don't do that. Because they don't give a damn.

[David J. Montgomery]

Lee makes an interesting point. Why don't fanficcers contact the copyright holders of the works they'd like to borrow from and get permission? Obviously they wouldn't get it 99 times out of 100. But it should be the rights holders who make that decision, not the fanfic writers.

If you respect the characters, if you respect the work, get permission first. Then your critics will have to shut up.

[Lesley]

You know, authors aren't exactly powerless when it comes to fanfics being written about their stuff. Just do what that woman who wrote the vampire stories did: forbid it.

People listened.

Isn't there a list somewhere of which authors allow fanfics and who don't?

[Lesley]

Also, I'm curious, how do you feel about fanart?

[Lee Goldberg]

I have to profess my complete ignorance, Lesley. What is fanart?

[monkeypants]

You're trying to lump fanfiction people into one monolithic group. There are tons of varieties of fanfic written by THOUSANDS of people, most of whom don't know each other, know about their respective genres/kinks/weirdnesses, or care. One person wants to write about Buffy as a Giant Ant, another wants to write about Harry Potter at the Dentist. They don't know each other, and do not communicate.

That being said, there are quite a number of individual fan groups that *do* contact the authors and *do* have an official ok on whatever they do; Joss Weedon is well aware of the number of fanfic writers surrounding most of his work (and does not mind). Same as JKRowling. There are others.

I don't write *or* read fanfic, but I understand the desire to learn a craft and enjoy some characters in new ways. I mean, at least half of the people writing it are underage. I knew a ton of girls writing this kind of stuff back when I was a kid in the 70s. They just didn't have the Internet to share it on, so they wrote it in their own diaries, or shared it with friends. There are a ton of fanfiction writers on the 'net just like that today, in fact. People who never post anything to a place like fanfiction.net, but post it on their private journals. If you are worried so much about the legality of the situation versus the morality of what they're writing, what do you propose to do about them? It must be obvious that you can't stop everyone from doing this. I think it's a natural way for people to learn to write, in the same way that young comic artists begin by copying the X-men or Disney stuff before they branch out to their own work.

I mean, Mattel hasn't been able to stop little girls from playing "let's pretend Ken and Barbie and GI Joe are a little randy this weekend" yet. I see this as a similar thing, and that eventually, yes, most people grow out of it and maybe start to write their own stuff. I don't think it's anything to get freaked out about.

[HelenKay]

I see the folks from Fandom Wank found you too.

[monkeypants]

Sorry, Helen, but not everyone who disagrees with you or Lee is from a massive cabalistic organization. I read your blog, is all. Maybe not anymore though. =/

[HelenKay]

I wasn't actually responding to you - just making a general comment. But, do you realize that you're expressing support for taking someone else's original works, distorting them however you please and disseminating them without the author's permission, then in the next sentence expressing moral outrage at my comment, "I see the folks from Fandom Wank found you too." Please be kidding.

[Huinesoron]

Oooh, the debate's back! Yay! [Bounces]

Now, from what I can see the arguments currently are:

1) The legality or lack-thereof of fan-fiction.

2) The respect or lack-thereof shown to authors by fanficcers.

I'll say this straight off -- the three main things I write fanfiction for have given their consent. First is J.R.R. Tolkien, who is a) Dead, and b) The author of a quote saying that he /intended/ for other people to expand his mythology. Second is Terry Pratchett, who has said that he is the only person allowed to make profit from Discworld stories, but that other people can write fanfic of them. Third is actually a second-generation fandom -- the PPC was originally a fanfic of Lord of the Rings, but has since expanded into a whole series, with spinoffs. We're very strict about permission regarding that.

Actually, there's a point -- some of the fanfic series' get very possessive over their intellectual property. The PPC is one. We do tend to go after unauthorised spinoff authors with a vengeance. I think I just lost my own argument through rampant hypocrisy, didn't I?

However, the difference here is that we choose to do that. You, too, can choose to request that people not write fanfics of whatever it is you write. You'll probably be a little more effective, too -- true, some people will choose to ignore you, but then, some published authors write trash. That doesn't mean all of them do.

Oh, and to respond to a point made, we /would/ contact the people in question and ask for permission, if a) The majority of fanficcers weren't thirteen-year-old girls who've never heard of 'copyright', or indeed 'spellcheck', and b) We wouldn't likely get /ignored/. See, authors get a lot of fanmail, or so I assume. I doubt they have time to answer it all. However, if it will make you feel better, I will waste some more of my time hunting down the email addresses of Terry Pratchett and the Tolkien Estate and send them nice emails asking if they'd mind /awfully/ if we write fanfiction about their stuff. Would you be satisfied, at least on the Tolkien and Pratchett fronts, if I did that?

-- hey, why stop there? Why don't we fanficcers pool our resources and contact as many authors as we can? We'll even let them set guidelines. Will that make you happy?

-- I'm not saying, of course, that everyone will follow those guidelines. But then, no law is followed by everyone.

This was completely disorganised. I'm very sorry. In my defense, it /is/ 1 am over here.

[Gloria]

Wow. Talk about Deja Vu.

First: Fanart is, well, art by fans featuring the characters (mostly), or vehicles, magic objects, etc. Interestingly enough while it is considered really bad form to sell fanfiction, fanart is very often sold, at cons or online. Cosplay items may fall into this category as well, especially things like pendants, weapons etc. Naturally the better artists get better prices...

I think the difference between fanart and fanfiction is that fanart is more obviously /art/.

"Why don't fanficcers contact the copyright holders of the works they'd like to borrow from and get permission? "

Maybe because most of us write for extremely popular fandoms, and if we all went and got permission each and every time we wanted to write a story we would eat up the creator's time. Even if A. Author fully supports fanfiction s/he would probably say no simply so that they would have time to actually make money and have a life. I don't know about you, but I would think asking such a thing to be rather rude, especially if it was thousands and thousands of people asking. I want my favorite authors to be writing more books for me to buy, not answering inane questions by thousands of fans.

Another thing is that many authors don't want to officially know about the fanfiction. Look up the Marion Zimmer Bradley case sometime. The short explanation was that she was actually reading fanfiction written about Darkover that her fans sent to her. One fruitbat fan actually sued her because she wrote a book that had a similar plot to the story that said fan sent her. This is why most fanfiction-friendly authors, at least in the science fiction/fantasy genre, simply don't want to know about it. That way they can't be sued.

(I don't mean to imply that all fans are lawsuit happy. Most of us are actually still very angry at that fan for ruining things like that. Before the lawsuit Bradley had a very open relationship with her fans. Afterwards no so much. Not that I blame her)

The possibility that they could be sued says something about the legality of fanfiction to me, by the way.

It would be nice if each and every original author out there had a clear policy for fanfiction, but they don't. I tend to write in fandoms in which the author is supportive to fanfiction. I know you know that both JK Rowling and Terry Pratchett support fanfiction, because it was brought up the last time. Both Mercedes Lackey and Harry Turtledove got their start writing fanfiction for Lord of the Rings. All four are successful authors and fanfiction has not hurt them in any way. Lackey as asked that fans confine themselves to the offical fanzines, but she doesn't seem to object to the online stuff as long as it is where she won't stumble over it.

I think what you don't seem to get is just how intertwined fandom, fanfiction, and original fiction are. I can tell you that I have much more respect for authors that allow fanfiction, because they show so much more respect to me, the fan.

If you don't like fanfiction and don't want it to be written about your stuff, fine. Tell people not to do it, and your fans will listen to you. Anne Rice got it to stop. Don't poke your nose into other fandoms, and tell writers (both fan and original) what to do, because frankly it isn't your business.

[Sion]

Dear God someone get Milton out of the literary canon, stat! Because, you know, Paradise Lost is plagiarized from the Bible.

Lee, your arguments fucking suck. Get the pole out of your ass.

[tod goldberg]

I must say that what I love most when Lee starts his quaterly attack on fandom is how eventually the fan fic writers just end up saying, Lee, you're a dick. (Although it was pretty cool when the battlestar guys also started challenging Lee to fist fights, wagers, arm wrestling competitions and then eventually ended up calling him a "fag".) Christ people, I've been saying the very same thing for 34 years...

[Patrick O'Donnell]

Quote:

"Harm is not necessarily measure in dollars, Jocelyn. Who are you, someone who had nothing to do with the creation of the characters,to decide how they are used? What astonishing arrogance.

Someone created the characters fanficcer steal... NOT YOU... how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work.

If you love the characters so much, why don't you show the authors a little respect? Don't you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property?"

What is interesting to me, in this conversation about colossal arrogance, is that you seem to be guilty of it as well, Mr. Goldberg. Who are you, someone who has nothing to do with the creation of OTHER creator's characters, to claim to speak on behalf of ALL other creators, insulting and ridiculing THEIR fans in the process? Especially on a subject where its clear that many of them do not in fact agree with you.

Already people have cited Tolkien, Turtledove, Lackey, Rowling, Pratchett....all prominent, prolific authors who either condone fanfic, or even got their start in it. Add C.S. Lewis and George R.R. Martin to that list, off the top of my head....Joss Whedon's Buffyverse is one of the largest fanfic communities out there, and he openly condones it. Devin Grayson is the only comic book writer I know of that started out writing fanfic, but Brian K. Vaughan, Geoff Johns, Mark Millar and numerous others have given it their stamp of approval as well. And it was a FANFIC messageboard that launched the "Save Roswell" campaign that convinced the producers of the show "Roswell" to keep it on the air for an additional season.

All of those people are creators whose livelihoods depend on their original work and creations. None of them give a damn if a fan chooses to use one of their characters in a form of speculative fiction that recieves no monetary compensation, or undue credit. So what gives you the right to attack other people for an act which is NOT harming you even by your definitions, when these other creators disagree with you as to whether or not they are even being harmed? Dear god, man, get off your high horse already before you fall and hurt yourself. You're certainly due respect for YOUR personal creations, and nobody would contest your right to ban fanfic based on your works, but that's all. You are not the mouthpiece for all these unnamed creators you claim to defend, and by the very same logic that says fanficcers don't get the consent of these creators to use their characters, you did not get the consent of these creators to use them as justification for your personal war or vendetta against fanfiction.

When someone makes use of YOUR hardwork and creations in a fanfic, I am certainly not going to contest your right to take whatever action you want. But with regards to anyone else's work....umm, hello, I don't care how famous or wellknown or how lauded you are. You've been published? Yipee-dee-skippidee-doo. You and how many other people out there? Who don't feel the need to personally degrade others over a matter of personal taste? You continually insist that fanfiction is in fact, illegal, and yet you have not cited any instance that clearly says this is so. Fanfiction is not a new phenomenon by any means. It has even been brought up in legal cases before, and yet I have not seen any lawyer or judge attempt to come after fanfiction as a whole.

Do you honestly believe that if it were actually illegal, the fanfiction community would be as large or widespread as it actually is? That this many published authors and creators would publicly condone it? That published authors and creators would openly admit to having done it themselves? And if its not a matter of legality, but rather one of moral judgement......back to the subject of comics. Any estimate of how much money Chuck Austen made by writing monthly issues of X-Men for almost three years? And yet, did he personally know Stan Lee or Jack Kirby before he used their creations. When all the fans complained about his treatment of fanfavorites that had been around for decades, as he wrote them in ways that directly contradicted the way they'd been portrayed for years.....where was your moral outcry then? How DARE he make money by raping some other creator's characters like that?

But there's no legal basis to complain there, and no real moral way to complain either. Oh but that's different.....except its really not. Sure, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby left those characters available for the use of other writers. Many of today's comics creators have done the same for their fans, with only the basic stipulation/understanding that no profit can be made from fanfic. Now if you want to go around to every creator you're aware of, and ask for their stance on fanfic, go ahead. And once you get that great big giant list, IF there's anyone on it who didn't already know fanfic was being written about their work, and decides they disapprove of it.......then feel free to ridicule away at any fanfics based on their creation. Until then, you have no real ground to stand on.

And before you go making misassumptions again, I am not a fanfic writer, nor have I ever felt the desire to write fanfic. I've always found my own characters to be infinitely more appealing. And y'know....to think that any character I could come up with would be more interesting than one whose had a rabid fan following for decades.......god. What colossal arrogance. So right, I guess I have no real stake in this argument either. Just as your a creator defending your fellow creators from the rape of their characters, I guess I'm just defending my fellow human frickin' beings from ridicule and cries of 'pathetic thief' that they really don't deserve.

Not that I expect they'll get an apology.

[An author]

In response to David Montgomery who asks, "Why anonymous? If there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, why be ashamed of it?"

Answer to the second question first: I'm not ashamed of it, actually.

Answer to the first question second: Because of the negative attitude of people like you (and Mr. Goldberg) who tend to lump all fanfic authors into one indescriminate pile. ;>

And really, you should have been able to guess that answer. What you're really trying to do is get out of taking seriously what was said by discrediting the one who said it. That's called an ad hominem attack, and it's not in the spirit of Jeffersonian Debate. Shame on you. (I'm not just an author, I'm also an academic. Deal with the argument, not the person.)

[Jocelyn]

"Lee Goldberg wrote...

"3) BUT...still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that's one type of "harm" that the courts have never recognized."

I do. The authors do. But you've chosen to ignore it."

The "authors do?" You're generalizing again, Lee, I seem to recall that JK Rowling, the most popular author of our day, is not only permissive of but supportive of fanwriters' activities. So is Joss Whedon, creator of the Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel series. The great JRR Tolkien himself said he WANTED people to write more stories based in his fantasy worlds of Middle Earth and Arda.

What gives YOU the right to speak for them?

"What gives YOU the right to decide just how "harmed" an author is by having his characters stolen and used in ways he has no control over? Who assigned YOU creative control of someone else's characters?"

No one--we the fanwriters are not taking CONTROL of anyting--and therein lies my point. YOUR work is not in any way affected by what we do.

"Someone created the characters fanficcer steal... NOT YOU... how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work."

EXAMPLE: Let's say you write a novel/episode of a TV show, and end it in a cliffhanger. I'm sure you've done that, having written for shows like SeaQuest etc. Now your poor fans are left wondering how that story will end. Of course, they will speculate. Some of them will stew and brood and try to figure it out, either because they're genuinely biting their nails, or just because they enjoy the detective work. And some of them may jot down a story in which they try to answer the questions you've raised in your cliffhanger. They may post the story for other fans to read, just as speculation, or to get their "fix" while they wait for you to solve the puzzle for them with the "real thing."

You've lost NOTHING from that fanwriter's activity. You haven't lost control--nobody will say that you now CAN'T write and release the conclusion to your cliffhanger. And I guarantee you--every fan, including that fanwriter, will be eagerly awaiting that conclusion, because it is the "Real Thing."

We have taken nothing from you. I really don't understand where you're coming from here. We have not taken control--it still rests 100% in your hands.

Even if, heaven forbid, Congress passed a law tomorrow banning all fanfiction of any kind, your fans would still speculate about plots and characters. Is that taking control away? Is THAT wrong? If not, then why do you object so much to them writing their theories/ideas/wishful thinking down and sharing it with others?

What do you LOSE? How is your work diminished by the idle daydreams of fans? I really don't get it.

"If you love the characters so much, why don't you show the authors a little respect? Don't you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property? "

My reason for not asking permission is simple--I'm not taking anything. All I'm doing is expessing an idea--a speculation or wishful thinking. Fanwriters acknowledge that our work is not the Real Thing and will never measure up to the Real Thing that the original author--you--puts out. We (well, the majority of us, anyway) give the original author every respect and tribute. Our work is a celebration of that author and the way they've inspired our imagination, to the point where the best way to express it is to spin a few tales of our own concerning those characters.

And, my friend, my book may not be published yet, but believe me, I've done some pondering about how I would react if I found fanwriters writing slash tales about my heroes or any of the other freaky weirdness that lurks in the dark alleys of the Internet.

In absolute honesty...I think I'd just laugh! No one will mistake their work for mine, I'm not responsible for what they do, so no one will blame me for their material (no one with a brain anyway), nothing they do diminishes my creative control.

I still don't get what your problem is with it.

[The Scornful Roman]

I wandered in here from Fandom_Wank, and I have one question for Mr. Goldberg:

If fanfiction as an entire genre upsets you so much...

why do you read it, or read about it?

Technically, you have the right to write anything you damn well please... but if thinking about fanfiction, or reading it, or going to fanficcer websites raises your blood pressure and makes you mad, why do you still harp about it? Do you enjoy this, in some way?

See, at GAFF we laugh at the badfic, as well as cry out in pain. Our sides are either spilt from weeping as we see our fandoms mangled, or because we're busting a gut with laughter at the sarcasm skills of our accquaintances. Even if I find a fic so awful, so depraved, that I just can't laugh, I know for certain that someone on GAFF can ease that pain with their humorous witticisms.

If you were laughing at badfic and enjoying poking fun at it, then I'd understand, but you really don't seem to be laughing too much at this. You seem angry and offended.

Why put yourself through this pain?

Just curious. *wanders back out*

~TheScornfulRoman.

[Tara]

It's complete and total garbage to say you're a writer, so you had no choice, and I don't know anyone who would cop such a pathetically weak excuse for why they did what they did. One always has the option of not acting on an idea that enters their head.

If you have such a problem with fanfiction, why not do more than bitch about it, and write the authors you feel are being injured by fanfiction.

To HelenKay, if an author doesn't want "that kind of attention", all they need to do is speak up and say they don't want fanfic written about their creations and tell sites such as fanfiction.net to stop hosting fanfics involving their work. The huge majority of fans who noodle around with fanfic would, without question, stop if that's what an author wanted.

There are authors that are fully aware there's lots of fanfic out there involving what their creation(s) and they are't bothered in the least. So if the author doesn't care others are using their characters, who's being hurt if no money is made and credit is given to whom it is due?

I'm truly confused how you're a parasite if a story you write has a character created by another writer and you say up front that the character belongs to so and so, but if you were to write an academic paper that involved the character, so long as you cite your source, you're fine. In my own life, I've noodled around with a fanfic that's centered around the concept of what life would be like in the nation of Rohan, which Tolkien based on the Anglo-Saxons. I make it clear what is my creation, that being the few original characters I use to show what life would have been like in an Anglo-Saxon society, and what was created by Tolkien and is property of the Tolkien Estate. In that, I am a parasite. If I write an academic paper elaborating on and exploring the exact same areas as what I looked at in my story, using a fictional Anglo-Saxon family I created to use to illustrate something, as long as I cite what is Tolkien's, there's no problem. The only difference between the two is one is in narrative form and the other is written formally for the academic setting. So how are they different? Both focus on the work of Tolkien and draw from his writings. For both, I need to research Anglo-Saxon society and culture. In both, I clearly cite what is property of the Tolkien Estate.

If your umbrage is with the purile, two-dimensional pap that is little more than a re-phrasing of what the author wrote originally, not everyone who writes fanfiction writes like that. If your umbrage is with slash, there are plenty of people who write fanfiction who don't write slash. I, personally, don't like it and some of the pairings do seem out of sync with what the author created. If your umbrage is with those that write explicit fics about the sex lives of characters, not all who write fanfic write those kinds of fics. Basically, whatever has you riled up six months after the last time you kvetched, take it up with those who do it, and cease tarring every single person who writes fanfic with the same brush.

[Charlene]

There's a conversation started again here regarding some aspects of fanfiction. It's an essay regarding the chance that fanfiction is going to do itself in by insisting too much on its right to post what it wants and where it wants without regard to the audience or the original material.

Little bit of background. A bunch of parents wandered into Fandom_Wank with questions, then started a blog to talk with the fic writers. Things were pretty polite for the most part and the ficcers were very nice to come talk with them. Apparently, questioning threatens and trolls fought hard to bring down the blog. People trolled on both sides, but by far it was people in fandom who didn't want that blog to happen. The parents gave up and deleted.

I don't know if the new conversation will endure. The group running it are tougher and know how to handle trolls, so it may go differently.

[herbiej]

Hey, "disrespect" is NOT a verb, moron. It's colloquial ignorance to use it as such. You call yourself a writer!

[Grapthor]

All of this is very compelling, so perhaps one of the purveyors of the art of fan fiction can explain Galaxy Quest fan fiction. A movie that pokes fun at obsessive fans spawns its own fan fiction. What next, fan fiction based on the documentary Trekkies?

[Lesley]

In response to the above question: "What is fanart?"

It's when you read a book, watch a movie, etc. and draw the characters/scenes you see or imagine.

[Saphie]

You're still going on about this? When you're actually a real writer, I'll listen, but that'd actually require you to have some measure of talent yourself. You'd also have to stop coming off as a prig in your arguments, too. CAlling someone a parasite and belitting them isn;t really the best way to convince people of anything, whether you're the one who's right or not.

Most fanfic-writers I know how more talent in a fleck of skin than you'd have if you had two bodies, when they write original stories. Which is why I agree with you that it's a shame that they don't write as much original stories as they should, but I'd rather read a derivative work of theirs than any of your original fecal drivel anyway.

And most fanfic-writers I know do take the original creator's will into account when they write. Joce, who commented up there, pretty much writes in the spirit of JKR's work and respects Rowling's request that fanfic not have sex and whatnot in it due to the ages of the characters.

Personally, I don't really get all the hub-bub about this anyway. If it were my books, I'd be honored, and when I'm published I'm giving a thumbs up and a go-ahead. They can write child porn for all I care--nothing anyone will do will change my original story.

[P M Rommel]

Ho, hum, this again, eh?

Like others, I'm curious to know what you think of fan art - where fans take images from the TV and draw their own pictures.

And sell them.

And when I say sell them, it's for serious gobs of money (if the art is good and they're in the US, I've heard of fan art going for upwards of $200 a pop) or for piddling small amounts of money (if it's not so good or they're in the UK).

As for filk...best not go there.

[Bill Rabkin]

Although it's hard to imagine there are any questions left to ask in this endless debate, apparently started whenever Lee is in the early stages of a book and needs to be distracted, I have one:

Why are fanficcers so defensive?

If, indeed, this is a harmless hobby, or a noble pursuit, or a God-given (Whedon-given?) right, why do all these fanficcers drive themselves into a fury when someone questions it? Why don't they just go on with their hobby/pursuit/right, instead of spinning themselves into a frenzy defending themselves against a writer they've never heard of and never read?

Is it possible that there's a reason for this sensitivity? Just wondering...

[Lee Goldberg]

I've never given any thought to fanart because, until today, I didn't know it existed. It would be foolhardy of me to offer an opinion about something I know nothing about.

The only reason I brought fanfic up again was in reaction to Meljean's utterly inane posting ("I couldn't help myself! I know fanfic is a violation of copyright and creative rights but I had to write it...because I'm a writer...and I had to post it on the Internet because I..I...I have a modem!") on her blog, which was forwarded to me by a reader here.

In reply to Huinesoron, I think it would be great if fanficcers made an effort to get the consent of the authors before writing and posting their stories. It would show a little courtesy and respect toward the authors and an acknowledgement of their creative rights to control the use of the characters and worlds they created. But you know fanficcers won't...because they are terrified that the author/creator might say no and that is unacceptable to them.

"Actually, there's a point -- some of the fanfic series' get very possessive over their intellectual property. The PPC is one. We do tend to go after unauthorised spinoff authors with a vengeance. I think I just lost my own argument through rampant hypocrisy, didn't I?"

The hypocrisy doesn't surprise me. It typifies the bizarre attitude of fanfic writers toward creative rights...they have them, nobody else does.

[Mark]

Bill,

Fan fiction writers and readers get so upset because Lee treats them horribly. Between he and David and the names they call them, it's no wonder people get defensive.

Lee,

I'm still waiting for the explanation on how you're a real writer and the fan fic people aren't. You take someone else's characters and settings and write stories about them. The only difference is you have permission.

Now, before you say that's the difference, you have stated many times that it isn't real writing unless you have created everything in the story from scratch. According to that definition, your DM books aren't real writing. (At least that's how I interpret what you've said in the past.)

Both sides of this debate are right and both sides are wrong based on their own logical falicies.

[April]

The argument about plagiarism doesn't really apply to me much. The two fandoms I spend most of my time in were created by people now dead (by 20 years and somewhere-around-2500 years), and if the rest ever end up illegal, I can just take myself on over to an RPG and live happily ever after there.

However, I strongly disagree with the claim that fanfiction isn't real writing. First of all, I've seen some original fiction that's absolute crap, much worse than most fan fiction. Second, writing fanfic is a LOT like writing historical fiction. You have a set universe (or Earth) with set characters (or historical people) but since it's impossible to record everything that happened to the characters and detail every minor subplot, there's room for others to fill in with their ideas and possibilities. Copyrighting aside, the two forms are almost the same. Never mind that historical accounts are usually warped a little anyway, so using a historical "nonfiction" source is similar to using a copyrighted fiction work as the basis for one's writing.

Some fan fiction sucks and is ripping off someone else's creation for one's own plots that have little artistic value. But some of it is very much in the spirit of the original work, and every now and then, it's as good as the original or better. And available for free.

I think that's the real reason that many paid authors hate fan fiction so much. They're afraid people won't pay for their work if they can get similar quality with the same characters for free. Rest assured that most real fans will read originals, and as long as they're high-quality writing, will buy for them (as opposed to going to a library or borrowing the book from a friend).

"Publishing" fanfic on the Internet for free is a good way for budding authors to get feedback and strengthen their skills. Fanfic writing is good practice for all types of writing and in particular it's very beneficial to those who plan to write historical fiction, modern realistic fiction, or other works that are not wholly placed in one's made-up universe. Isn't that a good thing? If one really loves literature and the writing craft, why would there be an objection to letting new writers practice and develop their skills, and veteran writers to try out new styles and genres by getting their feet wet in fanfic? I can only think it comes down to money in the end. Sure, everyone has to pay the rent, but trodding on people to keep them from taking away 0.2% of your revenue so that they can create art... well, that just sounds to me like someone wants a monopoly.

[P M Rommel]

why do all these fanficcers drive themselves into a fury when someone questions it?

Oh, is there a register where you have to sign up to be annoyed about something someone says? Why didn't someone tell me before?

[kete]

The thing is you can't possess ideas. Copyright law protects your right to make money off your ideas for a certain length of time. It does not protect your idea from being taken, developped further, twisted, caricatured, or simply taken into another direction if no monetary purpose is linked to that.

If copyright would try to do that you would soon find out that it's a law that cannot be enforced. Even if some archives were shut down, people would retreat to password-protected sites or to the paper circuit. You can rant all you like, fanfic is here to stay and much fun is had by all us ff writers and readers.

If second and third class writers feel it endangers their revenues because many people refrain from buying published books (because they prefer reading fanfic) they're most likely right, but who cares. Losses in published book sales are made up in more sold copies of movie and TV series DVDs (bought by fans and fanficcers) and first rate authors like the ones named above (JRRT, JKR etc.) won't lose a penny or a cent anyway.

The really good books will still be sold. It's just the drivel that one would buy to waste some time that one can spare now because there's much better quality to be had for free in fanfic if you know where to look.

kete

[Huinesoron]

Woo, the old gang's all back... it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to see so many familiar names (yes, I was here before, as D.Kelly. I forgot what name I'd been using)

Lee, please read /all/ the comments before responding. Gloria has already pointed out what I failed to -- that the authors would get bored to death by answering thousands of emails from fans all saying 'Can I write a fanfic based on your stuff?'. I mean, wouldn't /you/?

-- and, incidentally, is it the legal issue that makes you claim fanfic authors are not writers, or the fact that they did not invent the characters themselves? Because if it's the latter... well, J.R.R. Tolkien, who's this slightly famous author, wrote a fanfic of Battle of Maldon. I doubt /he/ asked permission. Does it really matter that the author has been dead for centuries? It shouldn't, not if your objection is to do with respect, rather than fanatical adherence to the law.

[P M Rommel]

Having read through the whole page, David Montgomery wrote: I think "theft" sums it up nicely.

David, David, we had this argument back in October. As I wrote then: Calling fanfic 'stealing' is red rag to a bull to fans - it would be as logical to call it arson or taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner. In fact, it would be more logical to call it taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner.

And in another post, I don't know about you, but I've an infinite number of things I'd rather be doing than bringing a costly action against someone who (chances are) has no money with which to pay damages even if I win, for merely the satisfaction of being proved right, despite the fact that it'll be appalling publicity. Against that hiding to nothing, cutting off my toes with shears starts to look attractive.

[David J. Montgomery]

Mark has gone over to the dark side! I never thought I'd see the day. For shame. :p