The PublishAmerica Scam

PublishAmerica is back in the news. The Washington Post wrote about the company, and this is author Lynn Viehl's take on it (she says it so much better than I can):

PublishAmerica is also an "advance-paying book publisher" with a company banner motto that reads We treat our authors the old-fashioned way -- we pay them. Except that the old-fashioned way it pays authors an advance is -- hold onto your hat -- a whopping total of $1. Now, I made twenty-five thousand times that as the advance for the last book I wrote, but hey, maybe I'm just ridiculously overpaid.

PublishAmerica states on its web site that its titles "are available through most major bookstores." Except for this one little thing: "Availability is not necessarily the same as bookstore shelf display." Translation: you can't get them in the store, but you can order them through the store's computer. Assuming you have psychic power and can envision the titles, because they're not on the shelf. Have I got this right?

The Post managed to get Larry Clopper, president and co-founder of  PublishAmerica to speak on the record about his company's approach to publishing. He should have kept his mouth shut.

To Larry Clopper, the company, in relying on its authors to largely sell their own books, is "revolutionizing" an elitist industry. It has, he says, "always operated on the highest principles of honor and integrity." PublishAmerica's authors often knew "decades of failure, dozens of rejections and life-changing disappointment," adds Clopper, who twice failed to find publishers for his own books. "Now they hold their books in their hands, and they are sneering down at the publishing industry that shunned them."

It's not the industry they're sneering at Larry, it's you.  The Post article goes on to discuss the pitfalls of Print-on-Demand publishing, the latest evolution of vanity press.

Because there have always been more would-be authors than mainstream publishers are willing to sign up, writers can turn to a variety of do-it-yourself alternatives. The major difference is that, one way or another, those writers wind up paying, instead of being paid, to be published.

POD companies like iUniverse and vanity presses in general don't appear to generate much public rancor, however, because they make it quite clear that the author bears the expense. Besides, such publishers do serve a purpose. The Authors Guild, for example, has an arrangement with iUniverse to keep its members' out-of-print books available. For a PTA planning to sell a cookbook, or a family elder passing her memoirs around to the grandchildren, a vanity or POD press makes sense.      But it's very unlikely to lead to a career. Once in a great while, a highly entrepreneurial author gets lucky.

A few POD books have sold well enough to lead to a deal with a mainstream publisher. But if your  book comes out through PublishAmerica, that's not going to happen to you. You sign over your publishing rights for seven years. So if Random House comes knocking,  PublishAmerica negotiates your deal  and keeps half the proceeds.  Not a bad trade off for your $1 advance, is it?  Larry Clopper says that his detractors represent a "miniscule faction" of the authors published by his company.

But the fact remains that his authors can't join the Authors Guild. Having heard complaints about PublishAmerica for years, the guild doesn't recognize its titles as membership criteria. "There's a long history of vanity presses and others taking advantage of the hopes of would-be authors," says executive director Aiken. "This might fall in that noble tradition." True, too, many major book review sections (including Book World) won't review POD books. "Some of our proudest moments come when authors are not allowed into certain exclusive clubs," Clopper retorts.

Those who petitioned the Maryland attorney general seeking "an investigation into this massive scam" had a different understanding, however. They weren't interested in sneering at the exclusive club; they thought that, at last, they were being invited into it.

Now that the mainstream press -- like Publishers Weekly and The Washington Post -- are picking up on the PublishAmerica scam, maybe people will finally stop falling for Cloppers clumsy con.

 

 

Comments

[Mark A. York]

"A few POD books have sold well enough to lead to a deal with a mainstream publisher. But if your book comes out through PublishAmerica, that's not going to happen to you. You sign over your publishing rights for seven years."

Exactly, which is some PA authors, even when they "move on" as they put it still are under contract to Clopper and Meiners. They take EXCLUSIVE rights. I gave PA a sting book already available from iU and kept it all through the process. It took me over a year to get them to return the rights, by fighting shills all over the Internet. Most sign the gag order to get out and even more remain kidknapped.

I was a source for both stories, but my level of victimization, which since it was a deliberate sting, didn't play as well as Ms. St. Amour and Easton's. I also have them on infringement as I have evidence of 4 sales after reversion. The lawsuit is worth about a nickel.

The 49 copies of stock scam is better lawsuit fodder. They make the more gullible buy this stock to be released. They print them after the check clears. Ka Ching.

[Lee Goldberg]

I dont understand the point of your "sting." You submitted to PA a book of yours published by iUniverse... then you spent over a year trying to get the rights back from PA. What was that supposed to prove?

[Mark A. York]

It was never removed from publication by the first printer. The point was to expose Publishamerica for what they are: a predatory vanity press scam, and entrap them into copyright infringement and deceptive business practices, which I have. The idea is to put them out of business. That can't be done from the outside, and it may not be possible from any direction.

At any rate, an iUniverse book is not a great risk as you know, but at least with that the rights are mine and the work can be resold should that be possible. It's not a novel either. It's a collection of journalistic travel essays. I can see your point from your perspective and positon. I didn't get any credit for working background on your show either try as I might.

Keep in mind the level that Publishamerica plays to. They don't deserve what they're getting, Lee. That's my only motivation as an altruist.

[Lee Goldberg]

It was never removed from publication by the first printer. The point was to expose Publishamerica for what they are: a predatory vanity press scam, and entrap them into copyright infringement and deceptive business practices, which I have. The idea is to put them out of business. That can't be done from the outside, and it may not be possible from any direction.

I still don't understand your "sting." YOU were the one who violated your own copyright... not PA. Even when you sign a contract with a real publisher, YOU warrant that the work is original and is yours free and clear, unemcumbered by any other contracts, etc. If anyone is at fault in this scenario, it's you.

I think PA is a scam and a fraud and should be put out of business. Your sting, at least as far as I can tell, doesn't illuminate any deceptive business practices by PA. If anything, it proves that you intentionally violated your agreement with iUniverse. Seems to me that all you managed to do was sting yourself.

No offense, Mark, but I also don't see what this "sting," and me not understanding it, has to do with working as a background extra on Diagnosis Murder and not be "credited" for it.

[Mark A. York]

It has to do, only as a side issue, with the "unsung" Hollywood warriors that get nothing but the dregs on the floor and no credit for participating. Most aspiring writers are also in this category. Some deservedly so, but others just shut out by the sheer numbers and lack of connections.

If it is indeed me that is at fault, it is nothing more than a misunderstanding and a lack of any checking on the part of Publishamerica. They solicited the book. They knew it was published and did not ask on thing about having it released from iUniverse. Of course I was aware of it, but nobody who deals with PA would be and that's the role I was playing in this script. It's the perfect defense on that charge. I'm well-aware of it and was then.

PA printed the book after they released it. I have the records.

Consider this Hollywood veteran in your PS neighborhood: Stephen Lodge. HE fell for it.

[Mark A. York]

No offense taken Lee.

[Mark A. York]

Here's another sting book. Atlanta Nights

[Saby Rodriguez]

Hi Lee,

I am interested in publishing, but I am not sure where to go and who to talk to about my desire in publishing. I am fully aware of many publishing companies make promises, promises, promises. I have little knowledge in this area and am in dire need of advice.

I also have 60 pieces of poetry posted at www.poets.com
and am very interested in exposing my work. What would you suggest?

Thanks, Saby J.R.

[Saby]

My e-mail address begins with a capital "J". Jasby33@aol.com

[Mark A. York]

Poetry is almost always self-published.

[A. S.]

I'm a PA author, and I have to say I've been SOOOOOOO Disappointed in them. I just don't know what I can do about it but ride out the 7 years on the contract.

I am positive they aren't paying me for the entire amounts of books I sold. I kept track last year of famiy and friends and online reviews I could find, but only got paid for four books and I knew I'd sold triple that.

My emails were never answered inquiring about it. I'm frankly one very pissed off author. My aunt is an author too and led me to researching PA. I would love to be involved in any Class Action Lawsuit agains them, but I myself don't have the funds to pursue one.

I want my book back so I can get it done by a REAL publisher, not a publisher who pretended to be real with false promises and flashing 'celebrity' names at me.

I am going to keep following your blog.

[Paul Collins]

This past month, I actually google searched several book reviewers, got them to request a review copy, I forwarded these requests to PA, PA was nice of enough to send review copies out, and now I got the three star treatment on Amazon.com. And more is to come! PA did a wonderful job of getting out these review copies to the various book reviewers and I thank them for it. My editor did a fantastic job of editing and am very proud of her work. My first book, Prescience Rendezvous, however, wasn't even edited and the publisher will not give it a second round of proofs, but I the amazing thing is this-- a person can google search a publisher, get their work published, google a reviewer, and get a major a reviewer to review their work on which leads to book sales. This is incredible. Only in America this could happen. Yes, there are negatives to every story, but through proper preperation, and planning, maybe a major reviewer on amazon will give you the three star treatment like myself. Now if only 'Prescience Rendezvous' was edited properly, but we all can't get what we want, but get what you need. Who knows maybe a bigger publisher will look at these reviews and take it on. Life is what you make it. Not all of us are overly connected sorts, but please take a look at these reviews and google me! I am always working on another manuscript and am not bitter at all. Thank you PA! If you they could give 'Prescience Rendezvous' a second round of proofs, I now have the connections to get those three star reviews. Google me! All the best!
Paul Collins
author of King without an Empire
August 14, 2005
1)Reviewer: Daniel Jolley "darkgenius" (Shelby, North Carolina USA) - See all my reviews
"Highly imaginative sci-fi with complex spiritual aspects. King Without an Empire is an unusual novel, full of exotic ideas and notions from advanced nanotechnology to hallucinogenic spiritual journeys."
2)Reviewer: Lesley West (St James, Western Australia) - See all my reviews
"This is a rich and detailed science fiction novel - quite a feat of the imagination!"

[Edward Saint-Ivan]

To critics of PA read this:
1) I dont care if PA keeps 100% of my royalties because they risked their money on my book.
2) I dont care if my books never appear on the shelve of a brick and mortar book store.
3) I totally understand if PA requires a seven contract because as mentioned before they put up their money for my book,
When PA accepted my book, it was the happiest day in my life.

[frakman]

You, sir, are a moron.

[Chris Well]

"I dont care if PA keeps 100% of my royalties because they risked their money on my book."

I don't even understand what this means. If you pay THEM to print your book (just like paying Kinko's to make photocopies), then what money did THEY risk?

[Mellisa]

Wow! I know a gal who got published with PA last year. She is so excited, she's writing a second book now.
I have some manuscripts and was considering submitting but after working in a university bookstore and trying to deal with print on demand publishers, I know better. People want a book they can hold in their hand while they are deciding if they want to buy it.
I've seen university professors use POD who then make their students buy their vanity books as part of a class.

[Roger Thibault]

I read the PublishAmerica contract carefully before signing it. It is worded to sound like it will fulfill everything a new Author needs. You don't pay them up front, (unless you want to buy some of your own books which is highly recommended by them.) They handle all publicity and shipping to the stores, (as they see fit,) and the Roylaties look very competitive, (If somehow your book sells.)
But look at that same contract in a different light, (the light of reality,) and you will see that it means nothing will be done to help the new Author at all. There are no press releases, no publicity, nothing at all unless the Author does it. Book stores sneer when PA is brought up and my interveiw almost ended when I mentioned PA as the publisher. I have tried to get out of the contract with them for various reasons and was told in effect, "You signed on the bottom line, tough!"
PA has no heart for it's Authors unless they are already well known stars who don't need name recognition.
I regret signing with them and will do everything I can to help others by warning them away from this company.
Larry Cloppers and Willem Meiner should feel shame at how they treat the Authors who fall for their 'contract'. I do.

[Mark A. York]

We've been doing that for years. Meiners and Clopper have no shame. Fooling people is the job.

[Pastor D]

I would like to know a little bit more about
Publish America here in the United States? If
you would be so kind. Thanks and God Bless.
Pastor D

Note: I would like to publish my book with
them???

[John S. Meade]

Pastor D:

My thoughts concerning PublishAmerica:
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15).

Hi Pastor D. Publish America are not the people you should choose. What they do is pretend to be one kind of publisher while actually being another.

There are legitimate publishers, who are highly selective about the books they publish, give the author an advance, publish the book at their own expense, spend money promoting it and making sure that bookshops have copies so that people can buy them.

Then there are vanity publishers, who look to authors to cover all the expenses of publication, AND do all the work of promoting it. What scammers don't tell you is that an author trying to promote a book without a publisher backing them up is a single voice with no authority in a howling sea of competition, and stands almost no chance of getting anybody to listen to them; without the credit of having a selective publisher's endorsement, most bookshops will assume that your book is incompetent and was only printed because you paid for it. Vanity publishers trade on the fact that most aspiring authors don't know enough about how the publishing industry works to know that getting your book printed is really only the beginning of getting it out there. That, and the fact that many people want publication enough that they'll pay for it, even though if you pay for it, it's not what most people understand by the word 'publication'.

Publish America is a company that, I think, grew up in response to the fact that people are getting more savvy about vanity publishers. There are lots of warnings telling you that if a company demands money upfront, they aren't legitimate, but what PA does is move the costs to the author after the book is printed. They charge far more for copies of their book than a normal publisher, so bookshops will be very unwilling to carry them.

The result is that the only people who are likely to buy the author's book are his/her friends and family. But PA produce the book so cheaply and quickly that those few dozen sales are enough to make them a profit. And the author has to buy every copy of their book from PA, meaning that it's an ongoing expense for you if you want to get copies shifted. In effect, they're putting as little effort as possible into producing the books and then holding them to ransom, knowing that you'll buy enough copies to make them some money.

To keep it profitable, they need large, large numbers of authors, as they're only making a few hundred dollars from many, which means that, whatever they claim, they are not selective about who they publish. This compounds bookshops' unwillingness to carry their books, because, while being published by PA doesn't prove your book is bad, it doesn't prove it's good either, and bookshops don't want books that aren't definitely good. It's in their interests, not yours, that they publish so many thousands of people.

It's called an 'author mill'; check out the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author_mill

If you want to see your book in print, there are two ways to go. The first is to try to get your book selected by a legitimate press, which will mean the odds are against you but if you luck out you'll be making money rather than spending it. If, on the other hand, your book is just something you'd like to have some copies to give to friends, family and parishioners, and you don't mind doing the work of selling it yourself, then you should go to a straight-up printing company that is honest in saying that they are a printer, not a publisher. I've heard good things said about Lulu.com, for instance.

Your call, but I really, really don't advise Publish America. Good luck with finding the right place for your book.

[chris]

I am an author and if you are having trouble getting to traditional publishers, you don't have to go to publishamerica. You can do the exact same thing on LULU.COM. But there's a difference. With Lulu, you won't get ripped off, you may stand a good chance of getting into bookstores, your book won't be overpriced, you have good marketing material within your grasp and you'll retain all rights to the book. Self-publishing is not a bad option, take the move "A Time To Kill," for example. It was a book beforehand and was first self-published. You get out of anything whatever you put into it. Having done an author's work may look good on you when heading for traditional publishers. Get as much under your belt as possible, just don't allow yourself to fall into a scam.

[Larry Cooperman]

Nobody will even pass a glance at a new author as if all the authors were created by Intelligent Design already.
So I gingerly signed a PA contract for my novel, Reaganville. It seemed that I would have that chance I needed. Predation is all over the American landscape and I am now aware that a lot of people are unsatisfied with PA.
In any case, my novel has a character based on a real person who is doing exactly what I fictionalized him to do and it is a political thing so Reaganville may be in demand in a certain city in California.
Kiss of death, I am worried about. Such a closed system this publishing thing is.
www.newmillguitar.com/editor.html
Larry Cooperman

[Chris]

I really think it's safe to say that any publisher is better than publishamerica. LOL. By the way, I didn't find any of Lee Goldberg's books on Barnes and Noble or any major bookstore. Anyone who's trying to find a good publisher, keep a few things in mind.

1- All companies have complaints, even the companies who issue the complaints to the public have complaints, but none like publishamerica, good God.

2- If a publisher has a return policy, descent editors, a good cover design, and does not overprice your book, you should be fine. If you have those basic needs and your book fails, it wasn't because of your publisher.

Anyway, getting back on subject, publishamerica is not the place for serious writers. Period! But if publishamerica would just stop overpricing their books, get themselves some good editors and place a return policy on their books, they'd have no problem. I don't understand why they find that so hard to do.
It's not that hard to see that PAs a scam. They sign you to a contract for 7 years, when no traditional or even ligitimate publisher would sign you for such a short amount of time. Do the research and you'll see that every real publisher signs you for the duration of the copyright of your book, which means it's theirs unless they go out of business or decide to release you. That should be a dead giveaway right there.
Their contract says that they "Print as the market demands." What do you think that means? PRINT ON DEMAND, and no traditional or good publisher works with that.
Letting people know is they key. You probably have no idea how many authors PA has missed because of these reports, so keep it up.

[Mark A. York]

" "A Time To Kill," for example. It was a book beforehand and was first self-published."

This is crap. Wynwood Press was not a self-publishing vanity press. That makes this a false statement and the other would be Lee's books aren't in Barnes & Noble. Au contraire. Signed lost in Lulu.

[Larry Cooperman]

I can't agree with the statement that PA is not for serious writers. I can agree with that statement up to a certain point. My contention is just the simple and well known fact: First time writers of serious literary fiction will not even get an agent to look at their work. It is a hat trick that I'm not able to do thus far. Second of all, and adjunct to the first: Agents are looking for bucks and literary fiction has less bucks in it than a thriller. So in the words of that old Total commercial; What's a mother to do?
Reaganville is a tight and unique piece of literary fiction. I'm the author so you can take it in any fashion, but you can read the first three pages at my website and some other excerpts there, but the first three pages will establish some of the feel of the rest of the book.
I figure that I have a few legal reasons to ask for my copyright back from PA. I'd say that one is the way that present themselves; We are just like a traditional book publisher. They are not, and that's just plain deception. Second is that they say they have editors. They don't. Now that part was a joke. The edits they did were either farmed out to India or just some kind of search and replace computer program.

[Marcus]

I agree that PA is a scam, no doubt, it's pretty obvious. However, I don't agree that just because a publisher charges a reasonable publishing fee that they're a bad publisher. Authorhouse, is NOT reasonable, however, the movie "legally blonde" went through them first, regardless of what Penguin or Random House may tell you. Second, a publisher who charges a reasonable publishing fee is not always a bad decision if they have descent editors and a return policy. A return policy is the key to getting your books into bookstores, period. This profession is all about money for the industry. Barnes and Noble doesn't care if your book can knock Stephen King on his ass and make Harry Potter look like Dr. Seuss, if there's no return policy, they will probably not stock it because they'll lose a lot of money if they don't sell. See for yourself. When an author calls a bookstore to ask for a signing, one of the first things they ask is, "Is there a return policy on your book?" They don't care how good or bad it may be as long as they know they're not going to lose any money over it. If they can return what doesn't sell and get their money back, they know they have nothing to lose. Remember the old saying. "Money can't buy love, but it can buy everything else." I'm telling you, it's all about money. Publishers who don't charge an arm and a leg, but want some financial committment from you up front, do it because they don't know if your book's going to be a success, so they want to make sure they get something out of it. No matter what the circumstances financially, a return policy, good editors and decent book prices are always going to be to your advantage. And just because someone's manuscript's rejected, does not mean they're a bad writer. Stephen King, JK Rowling, Nora Roberts and Danielle Steele were all rejected countless times, over and over. Harry Potter was rejected by 15 different publishing houses and when it was finally accepted by a tiny company, JK Rowling's editor told her that she should get a day job because she didn't have much of a future in children's books. So, no matter what hype you may hear, don't let it get to you. If you feel you have a great story to tell, do what you have to do to get it out there and work damn hard at it. You can't go wrong there. There's a way around everything. Let's say you pay to publish with the advantages I listed above and a reviewer still doesn't want to look at it because you paid. But, it has good editing, well, submit it to an agent who'll send it to movie studios. There should be nothing in your contract that forbids that. There's always a way around everything, just look. Remember, you have to start somewhere, but you don't have to stay there. Godspeed to ALL published authors and may your futures be bright. By the way, for the most part, predators and editors is NOT a ligitimate website. It's owned by one guy who, for the most part, gives publishers a bad name if they don't pay him. There are some he can't mark as good because of their numerous complaints, like PA, and there are some he can't mark as bad because of their good records, like Penguin, no one would believe it. But, for the most part, predators and editors is overrated. I've researched some publishers he's called: vanity and self-publishers, also known as POD, and their contracts clearly offer a full return policy. No vanity or POD publisher would offer anykind of return policy.

[Lee Goldberg]

You wrote: "a publisher who charges a reasonable publishing fee is not always a bad decision if they have descent editors and a return policy. A return policy is the key to getting your books into bookstores, period."

It's ALWAYS wrong to pay to have your novel published, whether the vanity press has a returns policy or not. Barnes and Noble and most bookstores won't stock a vanity press title whether it has a returns policy or not (your local bookstore *might* do a one-time signing for you out of pity or a sense of community, but most likely only on consignment).

Just try to get Barnes and Noble to stock your Authorhouse novel in their stores. It won't happen. iUniverse PAYS to have a copy or two of their books stocked on shelves in a handful of Barnes and Noble stores so they can tell their customers they'll be "distributed to bookstores...but the number of iUniverse books that actually sell in brick and mortar stores is negligible, as their CEO has reluctantly admitted.

You write: "Publishers who don't charge an arm and a leg, but want some financial commitment from you up front, do it because they don't know if your book's going to be a success, so they want to make sure they get something out of it."

That is absolutely false and the kool aid that the vanity press industry wants their suckers to drink. The only companies who charge a fee to publish a book are the ones that make their income off of authors, not from selling books. They aren't publishers. They are a printing service for desperate, badly informed aspiring authors.

You write: "If you feel you have a great story to tell, do what you have to do to get it out there and work damn hard at it. You can't go wrong there. There's a way around everything."

This is what the vanity presses are all about -- rejected authors who mistakenly believe there is a "way around" the obstacles to publishing success. There isn't. If you pay to have our novel published, the only thing you will succeed in doing is emptying your bank account.

Vanity presses don't offer a short-cut to becoming an author. They offer a swindle that preys on your desperation and ignorance.

You wrote: "Let's say you pay to publish with the advantages I listed above and a reviewer still doesn't want to look at it because you paid. But, it has good editing, well, submit it to an agent who'll send it to movie studios."

This is the most monumentally ignorant comment in your post. No reputable agent is going to take your vanity-press book and hock it to the studios -- because no studio will read it.

You have it totally ass-backwards. If you want to submit your book to an agent, submit THE MANUSCRIPT!!! There's no need to spend money to have it printed in book form by some vanity press first.

And if the book is any good, he will submit the manuscript to publishers who will PAY YOU TO PUBLISH IT. And then when the book is published by a real publisher, you or your agent or your publisher can submit it to a studio.

You write: "By the way, for the most part, predators and editors is NOT a ligitimate website. It's owned by one guy who, for the most part, gives publishers a bad name if they don't pay him."

This is a total lie, one that makes me suspect that you are a shill for one of the vanity presses. P&A was founded by one person but there are many contributors and it is highly respected by organizations like the SFWA and the MWA as a resource for writers. The vanity presses and sham agencies loathe P&A because it makes it easy for aspiring authors to learn who the scammers are. Another handy resource is the Writers Beware blog (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/), which is sponsored by the SFWA.

You write: "No vanity or POD publisher would offer any kind of return policy."

Actually, there are many that do in the hopes of taking advantage of the ignorant. Hilliard & Harris is one of them. They are essentially a Print-On-Demand vanity press that gets you to pay on the back-end rather than upfront (if you don't include what you have to pay to buy copies of your own books). Here's how they do it: they load their contract with an enormous number of egregious charges against royalties so that in the highly unlikely event that your book does make money, you won't see much of it. It's the PublishAmerica model.

So, in summary, my view is that all of your advice is dead wrong and should be ignored.

Lee

[Marcus]

Lee Goldberg, sir, with all due respect, you sound like a pissed off author who never made it. First of all, I am not anykind of spokesman or suppoter of any publisher. What do you mean that a return policy doesn't make a great difference? And what do you mean that studios won't read submissions from agents when that's the only way they'll look at them? They know that the only way a good agent will accept the manuscript is if it's good and will sell anyway. Look at Legally Blonde, as I said before. Great novels and stories, such as Legally Blonde, start off with the "not so great publisher" everyday and end up on the big screen. If an agent or studio will not read a self-published book, how'd she gets hers into a movie? A publisher can like your book all they want, but if most of the public does not, it probably won't do too good. Let me ask you this, if I were to say, "Lee, Let me have 1000 copies of your book, without me paying you a single dime, and let me take them off to Alaska to sell. Hopefully, I'll sell enough to give you back all the money you spent on buying them." Would you do that? Of course not, why? Because you don't know if they're going to sell or not. It's the same with publishers who charge a reasonable fee, they don't know if it's going to sell. Ofcourse vanity and self-published titles will have a harder time getting into bookstores than those do that are labeled with a traditional. I agree. As for Predators and Editors, so what if he's recieved high up recognition? Scam publishers recieve those all the time. All I'm trying to say is that when your book's labeled with a traditional publisher, a return policy, good editing and descent prices, you have the materials there to make your book a success. You shouldn't have to spend $1000s of dollars on promotion, but a small financial committment, there's nothing wrong with. Look at all these people who started their own businesses like grocery stores and auto shops for example. Do you think the state came along and said, "Hey, here's all this money, start your own business?" No, they had to place some of their money into it. But they knew that the long-term effect would be greater than the short-term. It's the same with being an author, it's a business of yours. I agree that publishers like Authorhouse charge way too much and that they're not a good choice, but there've been some successful authors to go through there. I would not, because they're self-publishers, but some have. And it's a fact that, of all the authors there are, Penguin or Publiahamerica, only one in a thousand will get to write for a living, if the odds are not even worse than that. I had a friend who became a PA author, which I warned him about, and when he called his Barnes and Noble to set up a booksigning, they let him, but, before the decision was made, all they said was, quote, "If there was a return policy on them, there'd be no problem." And they could clearly see on their computer that PA was a POD, all bookstores can. It's all about money, Lee, like it or not. Do you think that JK Rowling's publisher spent all that time and money promoting Harry Potter because they liked the story? Probably partially, but for the most part it was because they knew it'd make money. They know kids go crazy over it. You may be a Penguin or RandomHouse author, but, guess what, I've never heard of you. I never did until I found this site, and your books are not even on the Barnes and Noble website. Perhaps some should consider your crediability.

Good day

[Toby]

Hey, Lee Goldberg, I think this "Marcus" guy you've been talking to lately is off his rocket. He must be from a foreign nation or is just messing with you. No one's that stupid. Saying Lee Goldberg's books is not in Barnes and Noble is like saying JK Rowling's are not. Take it from me, this guy's either crazy or is just pulling your chain. I wouldn't pay him too much attention.

[Lee Goldberg]

"Take it from me, this guy's either crazy or is just pulling your chain."

Definitely...since, according to your IP address, you and Marcus are the same person and are calling from one of the hotels, travel agencies, or cruise ships operated by The Carlson Companies.

Nice try.

Merry Christmas,

Lee

[Toby]

Lee. Yeah, he's a friend of mine, I'll admit. He's a good person, just extremely mis-informed. I'll try to keep him off the computer. LOL. Have a nice day.

[Larry Cooperman]

Oh, once again I didn't pay a cent to have Reaganville published. I can buy them, and they expect authors to do this, but that is the so called scam. Vanity will cause you to buy them at wholesale from an inflated price.
I do agree that a publisher that charges is not worth salt.
Don't judge anything until you've read it. That's all there is, nothing more. Banter back and forth all you want about PA, but my novel is as good as they get. It is literary, and that is not exactly what sells quickly.

[TD]

If your books's so damn good, why couldn't you get a real publisher that would pay YOU rather than the other way around?

[Larry Cooperman]

Because nobody reads a new author in the literary field right off the bat. Something that I didn't understand but do now (and watch your mouth, be respectful). An agent will scan a book looking for well sold hooks, divide the book length and sample by formula. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Another thing I said, that you didn't register, is that I DIDN'T PAY! Not one red cent (it's hard for me to keep my composure when dealing with someone who doesn't read well). Once again, I DIDN'T PAY, and you must be an agent since you don't read.
Hey non-reading person. Buy my book. I dare you! It's damn good, and what have you written?
So, once again: I didn't pay, they did for the printing. The publishing game has changed quite a bit where big advances are not forthcoming to new authors. Because you haven't gotten an agent or publisher is no indication of your worth as in classical music, a composer may not get recognition until after death. Americans don't read literature, poetry or listen to classical music. Evidenced by the non-reading person who posted the comment that I am responding to, Americans (I am one but old-fashioned) are the refuse of the universe in the realm of arts and letters, impoverished in the cultural realm and literature is not what an agent wants. Publishers may but they want it presented by an agent and therein is the problem.
So why I post here is that most of the posters are intelligent and understand something about this GAME. And it is a game. It's all a game. I hate this word but I'll use it: political. There is a song and dance similar to a political situation. It is who you know not what you do. I've seen it in music and now it is repeated in books. Politics in The United States is by reduction. The candidate is made into something that is highly reduced and a icon like, carved in stone representation of some reduced mantra. So I would imagine that an agent is frightened to bring something to a publisher that is full of depth. It is based on a non-reading public or a public that reads crap.
I thought, "my god, I have written something great and everyone will want it!" Now I think, "I'll have to finish my historical novel and then I will sell Reaganville." A game I tells ya! Like fishing you change your bait.

[tod goldberg]

You'll pardon me for saying this, Larry, but you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[David J. Montgomery]

If you read Publishers Marketplace, you'll see debut novels (literary, genre and everything in-between) being bought by mainstream publishers every day. And the authors get paid actual money.

What a concept!

[Larry Cooperman]

Sorry Todney,

I'm the "fuck" talking about the comment above my post, sandwiched between my other post stating that I DIDN'T PAY FOR MY PUBLISHING, and adding the fact that American readers are looking for quick entertainment and nothing even slightly deep, and the politics involved, sometimes, in the publishing world. You show me your level of comprehension maybe?
If you have tried to publish a work then you would know what I was talking about.
I see here that some things run out of sequence and you could have fucking left the word "fuck" out but I guess you're just a fucking low brow, as I reduce myself to your level and use "fucking." Understand how one word can taint a conversation? But what am I doing here? Absolutley nothing but jacking off for a moment. So, Todney, with all due respect and in the language of the moment, what the "fuck" do you do? Have you written something? Do you understand the game? Do I understand the game? I dunno how much of it I do, but I have written and I know some of it, and no, I won't pardon you for adding the word "fuck" because it doesn't add anything but emnity and stupidity to an already contentious and close to the bone subject, which is a person's creative life and the word. I won't look for you when I need a minion.
Shalom

[Larry Cooperman]

Shit, Tod and everyone reading,

All I am really ever talking about is who reads. I read, by extrapolation I write, but I am not the ordinary American reader.
If people read there wouldn't be a PublishAmerica, who published me and I thank them for that, as crummy of a deal it is, and it makes the author have two jobs, one to write and two to sell. Huh? I have to write AND sell me? That's crap for a creative person who could be tooling up his chops on guitar to do a book performance.
Americans don't read and poets starve, children bleed, but that's not our fault. Tod writes, I write & roll and do my own peculiar thing which I don't blame anyone for skimming my Reaganville, an agent or publisher, and not get it. They are not supposed to. The only people in the business that GET IT are book promotion people because they HAVEN'T read it. It's simply a marketing thing and they get that and the title is good.
But you people out there will not buy Reaganville unless I pelt you with it, dare you to read it, and welcome your wrath after that point. You've bought it, underprice from me, and then you get to say, "he ranted Online and he sucked!" Try me, will you? I say probably not, but you are reading my words now. Hup, good gawd! Pomp and circumstance there Tod. If I am not pretentious now it won't be ascertained that I am worth the pretentions. You have a legit publisher but my work is so, um, groovy that it is maybe not reducable to a formula. When you're reading 100 books a week you reduce it to a formula based on page number and some kind of traditional form so certain things have to happen by a certain page, and in Reaganville it ain't gonna happen (remember that Seinfeld episode about the exclamation points?)!! I'm a composer so my book form is more "informed" and "plastic." I have guitar lessons in my novel and a character accompanies God to cocktail parties!
So I rant therefore I am, and I'm without a doubt, me. So screw petigree. To use a tool, fuck them. They aren't good enough for Reaganville and that's probably where they live.
PA is damn lucky to have me. I legitimize them more than anyone in their stable. Fuck, Tod. What the fuck am I talking about? You know now. History is a long progression of diminution. I'm closer to romance. I get more ass. My writing is more revolutionary and I dare you to buy Reaganville. Shit, I'll say that if you have a novel you've written, I don't care by who reading this, and I'll give more attention to so-called vanity publishing authors of novels, I'll trade Reaganville for it. How's that? Otherwise, if you don't have a published novel, I'll give you a grave discount and then you can call me stuff in public.
I always thought that all of these interactions where all about artistic dick size. Read Margret Mead about that. We can all be alpha authors on this bus. Right? No omegas? Except the moderator? Do I sound frustrated? Well, at least I'm not bitter. Give me a few more years, or maybe not. Tod, you there? Am I a lonley voice in the wilderness? Do Americans read? What? Like Steve King?

[Larry Cooperman]

Yes there David,

But do you know the exact details? How close to the publishers were they? Did they have an agent? Was the book just genre fiction? Did you try yourself? Do you write? Can we be alpha males together?
Not good enough to write Reaganville off. You are all cowards. You look for petigree. You will dis a guy and try to deflade him because you are worried about yourselves? I mean, could a book actually come out, with grand import that I don't sanction, you think, by proper petigree? Can use the tool, fuck? Boom!
David, you don't know the work in question so I'm not about to say that you are doing anything but making bad breath in the wind. I don't care who you are, you know of things that have just missed because they were revolutionary. You can't decide anything by reading a trade paper. You're just as corn held as anyone else in the business and arts and letter should not have a business in the sense that they decide what will cause business to happen in a tragically commercial way. This is what has happened to American literature sometimes. And I say tragic. And it is tragic and read my novel and then dis me. I'll venture to say that you will taint it because it doesn't have Penguin on the spine or you're a real person and artist and will accept something without a petigree. Hey, mutts are smarter.

[Lee Goldberg]

Larry,

To put it bluntly, you are woefully misinformed...and just plain wrong.

You wrote: "Because nobody reads a new author in the literary field right off the bat. Something that I didn't understand but do now (and watch your mouth, be respectful). An agent will scan a book looking for well sold hooks, divide the book length and sample by formula."

Where do you come up with this stuff? I have been a professional writer for over twenty years. I sit on the board of the Mystery Writers of America. I have been published by half-a-dozen different publishers. And nothing in my experience backs up a single one of your contentions...particularly your totally delusional notion about how agents judge a manuscript. No wonder you got suckered by PublishAmerica -- you have absolutely no understanding how the publishing business works.

You write: "So I would imagine that an agent is frightened to bring something to a publisher that is full of depth."

You're right, it is a figment of your imagination. It is merely the rationalization you've created to explain why no agent wants to represent your book:

"When you're reading 100 books a week you reduce it to a formula based on page number and some kind of traditional form so certain things have to happen by a certain page, and in Reaganville it ain't gonna happen"

Has it occurred to you that the reason that agents reject your book is because it's unsaleable crap?

I'm not just saying that to be cruel...I've written books and scripts that are still sitting in my drawer because my agent told me they weren't very good...or simply were unsaleable. The difference is I haven't taken the manuscripts to a vanity press.

Lee

[Larry Cooperman]

One more thing and it's really important. No agent, publisher, aside from PA, has read the manuscript. Presentation? I dunno. The way I put the novel; it is about a 500 year old curse placed on the conquistadors and their descendants, by the natives of Central Mexico and Internet dating?
I actually couldn't get anyone to read the manuscript except schiesters, and the agent that read it subjected to my above statement of method and given formal characteristics, as in "by this time I need some kind of explosion." That guy is named Peter Miller and I forgive everyone as a true son of gods will do. I have had people, that is, people who read a lot of novels read Reaganville and they say that it is great. Some I know, some I don't.
It was the same way with my compositions. Finally I get recordings but I wasn't supposed to be there doing something so totally different than the prevailing stream of whatever it was they were streaming.
Go ahead, dis me and not read my novel. Be completely pale.

[Lee Goldberg]

Larry,

You write: "If you have tried to publish a work then you would know what I was talking about."

Tod does, every day. So do I. That's why we have agents and publishers pay us to write books for them. That's why he knows what he is talking about and you don't.

You didn't pay to be published...but you aren't savvy enough to know that PublishAmerica is a back-end vanity press with no standards whatsoever. They will "publish" anything. They make their money off authors buying their own books (and convincing their family and friends to buy). That is why nobody considers them reputable, legitimate or professional in any way...or the works that they "publish."

Lee

[Larry Cooperman]

I'm serious guys,

This is my experience and nobody can tell me any different. And also, I am a student of other artists and arts. And a cursory read of the past will be enough.

I still say, none of you have read Reaganville. I would like to know what you've written but I'm sticking to reading others but I swear, read reaganville and then make your statements to me. They don't mean a thing to me now, respectfully and for all eternity, things slip through the cracks, this has been my experience in my classical music and I don't really know your work but I don't think that it poses what Reaganville poses.
I have no respect for formula writing. Not saying that it is what you do but you just don't know what I'm talking about because you are writers and I am not. Basically I am not a writer but I am generic creative, you know, one of Jerry's kids so to say and I don't offer up anything that is formula or genre. You maybe do.
So you are on a board. You're part of my problem, and I've taught college and I see the club that professors erect. No respect in that but give me a reason to respect your artistic dick size. Clubs? Really! Go ahead, read Reaganville and then act sanctimonious.
yes, I agree, first time writers get deals but first time writers with something really different are not going to offer the hooks, conventions and just plain straight forward comprehensibility that the business looks for. I'm just more radical and you guys are in clubs. Think about it. A club doesn't make you anything but a bored member, not a board member. A club.
Savvy? Yes, I made a mistake but so did Jesus (not that I am a member of that club). Tell you what Tod, Bubba, I am not a businessman. I am a creative artist and your savvy is spittle and I can get out of this contract easily because I am savvy. I am so slick that you don't even understand me. And take Reaganville as a work not as a petigree. Otherwise you have a sickness that can't be cured.

[Larry Cooperman]

As for me, I think that we are all in agreement about PA except when it comes to me. I have written a great book--you will not read it since you think it is flawed in some way. The system that has worked for you couldn't possibly be wrong. And once again I say that nobody read it so how could the system know me? It plainly didn't work for me so there must be something wrong with my work? Tell that to many artists that have hurt themselves on the system and gone on to be lauded. Again, nobody read it like congress doesn't read legislation.
To make the contention that my work could be crap is an easy way out for an audience that may follow your logic, that the system works to always weed out the banal, but haven't they also weeded out truly revolutionary work? I ain't talking about that Harry Potter shit, which is shit and that is almost my point; this is what they want and a mystery writer does not make a literary icon. Neither do I but I may. My writing is not at all typical because I come from outside the box completely. I respect inside the box, Kennedy, Doctrow, but I am not hanging on to conventions by any means. My only convention is to tell the story that will be as true to life as possible and also be fantasic. And I do know how story has become out of fashion in literature, that is the straight forward story. Mystery writing, I know nothing of. I have read literature all of my life and I don't consider this as literature. Can be, no doubt, but as our brother here, Lee, contends that if I can't get anything besides PA then it isn't any kind of writing. I contend that if it is genre then it ain't literature, mystery, science-fiction and romance. Now we all know that some things in these genres have ascended beyond their lowly beginnings but as a rule, not. This is the way Reaganville has been dealt with here and this is the way I deal with The Guild of Mystery Writers. Big deal. I don't read it anyway and it, to the best of my knowing, has not won Pulitzers. Only literature has done this and Reaganville may get one yet, a mystery novel not likely.
No offense, not necessarily beneath me but not a good use of my reading time. Do like good stories though so it can ascend into a good time but make me think? Show me; I'll show any of you people Reaganville, but you're not likely to take me up on it because it may rock your contentions. Quite pale and beneath an intellect, but this is what I contend, and I'll thank you to discuss this and help me understand some things. I am really not savvy, just looking for multiple means of expression. Now if you guys want a fine guitar then I am a all business and sales otherwise I can't sell myself. I'll sell you someone else. I could be an agent. Got nothing against the profession. I do have a problem with those who think it works like clock work when it almost never has with the revolutionary.

[Lee Goldberg]

I have no desire to turn my blog into the Larry Cooperman/Reaganville page (though I foolishly contributed to the lengthy and pointless tangent). I have unpublished all the recent irrelevant posts, including my own, about Cooperman's book. This is a discussion about PublishAmerica, not Cooperman or his book. I apologize for letting the discussion stray so far and so pointlessly off topic.

FAIR WARNING -- From this point on, I will delete any comments revolving around Larry Cooperman and his book. Comments relating to PublishAmerica and its business practices are fine and dandy.

Lee

[Larry Cooperman]

That's fine Lee,

I know what this is all about. Do you? It's so nice to start a "thing" that You can't handle.

I'll send you a link to my soon to be posted blog and maybe you can learn something there. I surely learned a lot and I do thank you for your time. I know I'm just too hot to handle so I doubly appreciate your patience.

All the best to you, Tod and all these folks. Read a piece of literature sometime.

Larry

[Toby]

Lee, I was wondering, were you one of the unfortunate ones who got lured into the PA scam? The reason I'm asking is 'cause you seem so dedicated to exposing them, like it's personal.

Thanks.
Toby

[Roxanne Sackville]

Does anyone know if there is an ongoing case against PA, I have an issue that potentially could be included.

[Lee Goldberg]

Toby,

Nope -- I just hate self-publishing scams that prey on the desperation of aspiring writers.

Lee