Godawful Fan Fiction

I came across a fanfic discussion group called "Godawful Fan Fiction" that, despite the topic of the discussion, isn't too pleased about my comments regarding fanfic.

Lee Goldberg, in my opinion, is nothing more than a glorified fanfic writer himself. He didn't create the series, he just wrote some of the tv-episodes and followed up the series with several books...Basically, although I see Lee Goldberg's point, I don't think he is in any position to critisize, and I don't think it's his place to, either.

Obviously, he or she doesn't understand the distinction between someone who steals the intellectual property of others (ie fanfic writers) and someone who is authorized by the copyright holders to write about their characters (ie me). He or she also doesn't realize I was more than just someone who wrote a few episodes...I was an executive producer of the show (with William Rabkin) and, prior to that, a supervising producer... and we wrote DOZENS of episodes... and those are just the ones we took credit for.

I did learn something from reading these posts, however. Apparently the slash/impregnation fanfic is a genre all its own called "mpreg."

Yuck.

Comments

[Jim Winter]

Once again making me proud I went off and did my own stuff. More satisfying, pays better, but I still manage to piss off the creator of the characters almost daily. But then he has to stare back at me while I shave, so what's he gonna do? Sue me? Wouldn't that make hair grow on my attorney's palms?

(Don't laugh. Hamilton County, where Cincinnati is situated, actually sued itself earliet this year.)

[Teresa]

Lee, love the blog but I need to set you straight on one point. Not all fan-fic writers steal the intellectual property of others -- there is an entire branch of fan-fic writers out there (i.e.: me) who write fan-fic from works in the public domain.

[David Montgomery]

I took some flack just for agreeing with Lee on DorothyL... can't imagine how much abuse he's getting.

He's right, though: fanfic is lame and generally offensive.

Can't people just create their own galaxy-hopping, over-sexed spaceship captains?

[Coyote]

::He's right, though: fanfic is lame and generally offensive.::

For the love of Christ, will you people stop stating opinion as fact? Jason Voorhees on a pogo stick... Also, generalizations bad. Very bad. What is lame and offensive about a fic that takes a minor character and tell the story through their eyes? Or that speculates on what would have happened had a certain decision not been made?

Fanfic - just like original work, who'dathunkit? - runs the gamut from very very bad to very very good.

[Lee Goldberg]

Theresa,

Writing stories using characters in the public domain is very different from the "fanfic" I'm talking about --using characters from movies, tv shows and books without the authors consent. I would argue 99% of the fanfic out there falls under this category. There is nothing wrong with writing about characters in the public domain.

[R.C.H. Mulhare]

Mr. Goldberg, please leave us fanfiction writers alone. We aren't trying to steal from anybody. We aren't trying to hurt anybody. We don't make a single red cent from our creations. I don't understand what's the big deal about a simple, inoffensive hobby like fanfiction writing. Would you rather we were sawing off our own shotguns in our basements or posting bomb-making recipes online or kidnapping children and making horrible pornographic movies of them?

[Lee Goldberg]

So...it's either let us write fanfic, or we'll kidnap children for pornography? Gosh, if I knew that was the alternative to fanfic, I would never have said a word.

You don't understand what's offensive about fanfic because you aren't an author who has had your characters stolen... and used in swill like "male birthing" and "slash" stories. You haven't had fanfic authors tell you the characters belong to them because "we're writing for love, and you're writing for money."

Here's an idea. Try writing an ORIGINAL story of your own, using characters YOU CREATE (I know, that's asking a lot). Put your heart and soul into it. Then see how you feel about people taking your characters and doing whatever they want with them. Would you be flattered to see two of your characters having anal sex? Perhaps having a sex change operation? Or urinating on one another?

[Coyote]

//So...it's either let us write fanfic, or we'll kidnap children for pornography? Gosh, if I knew that was the alternative to fanfic, I would never have said a word.\\

A tip, sirrah - sarcasm is much more effective when you aren't warping the person's words.

//You don't understand what's offensive about fanfic because you aren't an author who has had your characters stolen... and used in swill like "male birthing" and "slash" stories. You haven't had fanfic authors tell you the characters belong to them because "we're writing for love, and you're writing for money."\\

Blah, blah, blah, pity me for I make money and my ego is wounded by the scrawlings of fans who make no money off it. Don't like what's being done to your characters? Hunt down the fansites and let it be known that you want no fic written about them. Then the fic stops. Amazing what getting off your ass can do.

Also, I have never known a single honest fan of anything to claim that they have more a of a right to a character then the creator. Only badfic writers do that, and they are an enemy of any sane human being.

//Here's an idea. Try writing an ORIGINAL story of your own, using characters YOU CREATE (I know, that's asking a lot). Put your heart and soul into it. Then see how you feel about people taking your characters and doing whatever they want with them. Would you be flattered to see two of your characters having anal sex? Perhaps having a sex change operation? Or urinating on one another?\\

*Yawn* Fine. I will. If you promise to write a fanfic that is fully-researched, keeps everyone in character, and conforms exactly to the predetermined laws of the chosen world.

Of course, your ever-so-precious ego won't allow you to take up my challenge. Because after all, it might turn out you're wrong and we can't have people running around exposing themselves to new ideas and opinions.

*wanders off humming American Idiot*

[R.C.H. Mulhare]

"So...it's either let us write fanfic, or we'll kidnap children for pornography?"

I was using the most morally offensive thing I could think of as a (somewhat hyperbolic) contrast to fanfiction writing. My point was that if you compare fanfiction writing to something that truly violates morality and decency, fanfiction writing shrinks down to size on the scale of morality.

"Here's an idea. Try writing an ORIGINAL story of your own, using characters YOU CREATE (I know, that's asking a lot). Put your heart and soul into it. Then see how you feel about people taking your characters and doing whatever they want with them. Would you be flattered to see two of your characters having anal sex? Perhaps having a sex change operation? Or urinating on one another?"

It's funny you should put it that way: One of the original characters I created for a couple of my "A.I." fanfictions (and I'm also planning a completely original novel based on his complex life story), is a polyamorous pansexual (or to quote his own self-description in one of my jottings, "I'll f**k anything that moves."). If I published this novel, I could see people writing all kinds of strange fanfictions involving this guy. But would it offend me? Sure, I'd be annoyed, but I wouldn't take it personally. People are entitled to their imaginations, however bizarre, but as long as they weren't trying to profit from their fan-creations, I'd have no problem with it. I actually had someone borrow one of my original characters without my consent once or twice, but I shrugged it off as no big deal: I was actually rather pleased by it, since it showed that someone had read my stuff and clearly liked it.

[David Montgomery]

These geeks are positively frightening. What total whackjobs.

I still don't understand why the hell they can't just make up their own crap.

[David Montgomery]

Quality stuff here!

======================
From R.C.H.'s website:
http://mechahuggermr.tripod.com/id14.html

Title: Blush, Blaze, Burn
Author: Sapphire Rose

Disclaimer: Nothing in this story belongs to me except the character I made up. And I used some lyrics to a song by Linkin Park song ('One Step Closer'); I don't own them either.

Excerpt:

"When Aimee walked past him, she could tell it was the one everyone wanted. She thought he was very handsome, and she knew who he was. And she knew he was artificial. Features such as his could only be artificial. She directed her steps more towards him, until she was very close to him.
'Hey, Joe, whadaya know?' she said as she ran her finger under his chin. "

======================

This is worthy of defense?

I'd rather read the grafitti on the walls of a bathroom in a Times Sqaure sex shop.

[Coyote]

*eyeballs fic*

Hmm. That's really not enough to judge the fic by. If it's about - as she insinuated - a sex worker... then I rather like the sleazy feel she invokes.
And Times Square no longer has sex shops.

"These geeks are positively frightening. What total whackjobs."

Suggestion: Speak not, unless you have something intelligent to say.

"I still don't understand why the hell they can't just make up their own crap."

Many of us do. Others prefer not to, because we don't think it's as fun and rewarding. It's a _hobby_. Get over it, and yourself.

[Bill Rabkin]

Hey Lee,

Can't say I'm nearly as upset as you by what you see as immoral pirating of copyrighted characters. I don't think it's a crime -- although one idiot's notion of the reasons it doesn't violate copyright does make me want to think of it as a crime -- but I will agree that it is a pathetic waste of time, not only for the slobs who write the stuff, but even more for those who read it.

I mean, at least the writers -- or do they give themselves a cuddly pet name like "ficcers"? -- can grant themselves a feeling of accomplishment at having finished some magnum opus in which, say, Magnum has sex with Opus (if you want to do the Magnum PI/Bloom County crossover). But what do the people who have used a chunk of their lives to slog through this slop get? I admit, I probably spend more time reading fantasy novels and thrillers than I do reading books that Really Matter, but I think I'd poke out my eyeballs before reading this swill. Heck, I might even pick up a Sidney Sheldon before diving into Captain Archer's amorous adventures with Jessica Fletcher.

I'd probably be harsher on losers who write fanfic, but I just finished fast-forwarding through The Day After Tomorrow, and it's hard to imagine any unpaid writer doing much worse. But I'm fooling myself, I know...

[Bill Rabkin]

By the way, the idiot who said you were little more than a glorified fanfic writer is exactly right -- in the same way Donald Rumsfeld is just a glorified version of that guy who plays Risk all day long.

Pardon me for sounding a little hostile, but we ran that show for two years (a little more than that, if you count the end of our Supervising Producer season). We are probably responsible for at least a third of the episodes produced, more than anyone else who ever worked on the show. And yeah, we got paid for it, too.

[P M Rommel]

Writing and TV programmes are products in the same way that Coca Cola or telehones or cars are products. People are, surely, entitled to use or enjoy them in whatever way they choose, assuming that that choice does no harm to others. It appears to me that fanfic is one way of enjoying a product.

Clearly, it is not one that you (or some of your friends) understand or like, but I'm always a bit wary of those who say or imply that the public (or sections of the public) can enjoy a "product" only in particular ways which they deem "suitable" - even when those unsuitable ways do no harm. That does not seem to me to be reasonable.

If you can point out to me a way in which fanfic authors harm others, I might be more sympathetic to your argument, but so far all you seem to have come up with is, 'I don't like it, therefore it is a bad thing.' We all have to endure things we don't much care for, but in this case you have the option not to go to these sites and not to read that, as one commentator put it, 'swill'.

And, as others should have pointed out but seem to have omitted to do so, it's not 'stealing' - where I am, the term 'stealing' has the connotation of 'intent to permanently deprive the owner of an object or thing'. It would only be stealing if a fanfic author said, or implied, "Now I have written this story about these characters, nobody else can do so including the original creator." No fanfic author, to my knowledge, has ever claimed any such thing, and nor would they be likely to. If they did, the rest of the fanfic community would be down on them like a ton of bricks with extra spikes.

Fanfic, if it is anything, (a matter that has yet to be determined in court) is copyright infringement, which is an entirely different matter. You do your argument no good by using an incorrect analogy.

[Lara Neil]

Dear Lee

<>

I'm puzzled by this quote which you made in response to a comment by Teresa.
It seems to me, that the only difference between writing about a character in the public domain and writing about a character still under copyright is the _legality_ of the thing.

Whether the original creator is in a position to have a legal claim over the character or not, the actual process is the same. If a writer posts, online for no profit, a story based on Stoker's 'Dracula' and another on Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings' there is notthing wrong with the first, while the second is "a waste of time, talent and creativity". Yet, the difference between them is just the letter of the law.

You seem vehement in your attacks against fanfiction in a 'moral' and 'ethical' light. Is your problem with fanfiction based purely on the legalities of the issue, or is there something more in your dislike of the genre as a whole?

Could you possibly clarify your position? I find this an interesting debate but I'd like to understand more clearly your stance, free from the emotive and ad hominem attacks coming from both sides.

[Lara]

Apologies. The quote which began that bpost ought to have been this one:

"There is nothing wrong with writing about characters in the public domain."

[Lara Neil]

David Montgomery,

Your quoting of a particular fanfic is something of a nonsequitor in this debate. The quality of fanfiction is not what's at issue here. I could just as easily post a poor piece of original fiction from Fiction Alley, or from a published work for that matter and use it to demostrate that all forms of fiction are indefensible. That, I will take for granted, is not a position any of us would find logical.

[Annie/Miss X]

I wasn't going to add anything else to this debate, but after logging on and reading some of the comments this morning, I felt obliged to reply.

"Lee Goldberg, in my opinion, is nothing more than a glorified fanfic writer himself..."

Yes, that was my comment. Probably not the most intelligent thing I've ever said and I'm slightly bemused that you quoted it, especially when there were so many arguments posted by others that were more coherent and accurate. I was disappointed by your original comments (I'm a student, and we are renowned for being DM fans) which was probably why I stepped out of line. But I won't go back and edit it, although I do think this quote is misleading as to the purpose of GAFF. I'll leave it up to people to visit the site themselves and make their own opinions!

Secondly, if you are that anti-fanfic there are things you can do. It has already been mentioned many times how Anne Rice doesn't allow fanfiction of her work, and on the whole most fans are perfectly happy to follow her wishes. A simple email to fanfiction.net (and similar sites) will remove the Diagnosis Murder section, if that is what you wish.

I think the amount of venom directed at you was purely due to the fact that instead of being pro-active and actually doing something about it, you instead chose to visit a fanfiction community and insult the majority of members. We don't like whingers! If something is wrong, you try to fix it instead of complaining (especially to people who don't care/can't do anything about it). Thanks for apologising and leaving once you'd realised your mistake, it was very magnanimous of you.

And good luck with the new DM book!

[Lee Goldberg]

Coyote,

//*Yawn* Fine. I will. If you promise to write a fanfic that is fully-researched, keeps everyone in character, and conforms exactly to the predetermined laws of the chosen world.//

That's exactly what writers on a television series do every day -- and what I do as a writer/producer on MISSING, as a writer on MONK, and as author of the DIAGNOSIS MURDER books.

The big difference between what I do... and what "fanfic" authors do.. is that I always work with the creative involvement and direct consent of the creators/owners of the characters. Nothing gets written without their approval and ultimate control.

I suspect your argument would be the big difference is money, that I get paid for my work and "fanfic" writers don't. It's a specious argument. Whether you get paid for "fanfic" or not, it's still an actual, and ethical, violation of the intellectual property rights of the creator/author of the TV show, movie or book.

Let me pose a question to you. If you create a character and a world... for a TV show or novel... wouldn't you agree that it's yours? That you own what you've created? That it should be your decision what the characters say or do and how they intereact with one another? Wouldn't you be offended and upset to see your characters used without your consent... doing and saying things you would never have them say or do? Would you be flattered if two of your heterosexual, male characters are appropriated for a "male birthing" story?

[Lee Goldberg]

Annie,

//I think the amount of venom directed at you was purely due to the fact that instead of being pro-active and actually doing something about it, you instead chose to visit a fanfiction community and insult the majority of members. //

You're right, that was poor judgement on my part and I apologized. As I said in my last message there, it's like going to a Bar Mitzvah and screaming "I Hate Jews."

I have complained about DM fanfic, particularly of the slash variety, to website owners in the past... though I can't recall if I ever sent an email to the website you mentioned. The response I got was, basically, go to hell, we'll do what we want.

[P M Rommel]

"If you create a character and a world... for a TV show or novel... wouldn't you agree that it's yours? That you own what you've created?"

I may be able to sell it to a publisher, but once it's hit the real world, I lose control over how the readers imagine it, and what they use it for in their own minds and whether they write those fantasies down to share with others. It's only really and truly mine as long as it's on my PC and shared with nobody.

"That it should be your decision what the characters say or do and how they intereact with one another?"

How can I control the fantasy lives of other people? I wouldn't even want to try. That's an idea I find deeply creepy - you do seem to be trying to say that there are suitable and unsuitable fantasies.

"Wouldn't you be offended and upset to see your characters used without your consent... doing and saying things you would never have them say or do?"

Er...no. As I said, my absolute control even over characters I've created ceases when they are made public. Others can't make money out of them, but they can use them in their imaginations how they choose and I cannot prevent that. Nor can I prevent them sharing those fantasies with others if they choose to do so.

"Would you be flattered if two of your heterosexual, male characters are appropriated for a "male birthing" story?"

That would depend on the ability of the writer to make me believe it. Even in the fanfic community MPREG as a concept has a reputation of producing dreck, but even despite this not all MPREG stories are dreck. 99.99% of them, but not all.

[Lee Goldberg]

PM,
//Writing and TV programmes are products in the same way that Coca Cola or telehones or cars are products. People are, surely, entitled to use or enjoy them in whatever way they choose, assuming that that choice does no harm to others. It appears to me that fanfic is one way of enjoying a product. //

There is a big difference between art and other products, like Oreo cookies and coca-cola... and c'mon, we BOTH know that.

TV shows are works of art (and I don't mean that as pretentiously as it sounds). You can't make products using TV shows (and their characters, logos, etc) without being licensed by the copyright holder. You can't copy a painting and put it on t-shirts without the permission of the painter.

We write and produce TV shows for people to VIEW... they aren't granted an implied license to re-use the program, its characters, or its trademarks as novels, short-stories, t-shirts, etc.

Manufacturers make cookies and drinks for people to CONSUME. You can use Oreo cookies as an ingredient in a cake, and even sell that cake to others, without getting permission. What you can't do is make a cookie and distribute it as an Oreo, which is a copyrighted brand name.

You may consider TV shows and writing as the equivalent of buying a Big Mac... (and, I'll grant you, some TV shows and writing may have the same artistic value, even many that I have done!).. but they aren't the same thing.

[Lee Goldberg]

PM,

Of course people are going to fantasize about your characters and perhaps imagine other possibilities for them. What I object to is when they put those fantasies on paper as stories, publish and distribute them (or distribute them on the Internet).

But beyond my ethical problems with "fanfic," I also think its a ridiculous waste of time, energy and creativity. Fanfic is pointless. You want to write? Terrific. WRITE. Create your own characters and worlds...truly express your artistic potential and your unique voice. Don't waste yourself writing "male birthing" stories about JAG characters (not that I'm saying that you, personally, have such stories. I'm just making a point).

[P M Rommel]

"I also think its a ridiculous waste of time, energy and creativity."

Ah...I write for money. Not, perhaps, writing as you would understand it, and it doesn't say 'writer' or 'author' on my CV, but I sit all day in front of a computer screen putting words together. In my real life job, I have learned not to be prissy about people taking my words, because if I was prissy about that, I woud spend my days in a world of pain and life is just too short.

To an extent, all writing is pointless and none more so than fiction. I'm not sure how fanfiction is more pointless than published work, with the sole exception that fan writers aren't paid for their work.

It seems clear to you that creating your own worlds is somehow more - admirable - than borrowing someone else's. Why this should be isn't at all clear to me - there is a long history of writers using the work of other writers as a base, sometimes altering the storylines to flatter their current paymaster. It's possible, if you get your mind around it, to see fanfiction writers as the inheritors of that tradition. And it'll cause you considerably less grief than you currently seem to be running into.

[Charles Ellis]

Yes, they weren't pleased. Partly because you showed up telling us all how we were committing MORAL offenses. This is plainly bunk- writing fanfiction is not causing physical or mental harm to anyone (well, good fanfiction anyway).

As for stealing... well, nobody's making money off it and it doesn't prevent anyone buying the originals. Fanzines of fanfiction have been published for decades now, and the holders of copyright don't seem to care unless the fanzine makes money off it. Then there's fanfiction like Neon Genesis Evangelion R, which got a letter of approval from Gainax (the company who made the show), and Terry Pratchett stating he doesn't care if people write it as long as he doesn't come across it; not every creator has the same strong negative feelings about fanfiction that you do.

And you think mpreg is bad? Us GAFFers have seen a lot more and a lot worse. We have stronger terms for it than "yuck". Gah- everything I've said in defense in fiction gets discounted when it comes to the horrors of mpreg.

[A Clouter]

Okay. Read the article, am a GAFFer, and so forth, and I just thought I'd toss in my own two cents. Mind you, this is rapidly turning into a debate of Anne-Rice-like infamy.

Mr Goldberg, you seem to be addressing more than one issue in your article. First of all the plagarism claim - which is, after all, the legal term that you appear to be describing.

As we have stated, numerous times. We do not make profit from fanfiction. Often, the prelude to it is a particularly interesting comment, or scene in the show/book/movie, that sparks thought. This leads writers to develop ideas and come up with scenarios of their own, involving the characters of the show.

To defend it on a 'moral' point of view - I'll give you an example that I know fairly well.

I'm seventeen, I don't mind admitting. I'm in the process of two books, both children's fantasy, a genre that requires an immense amount of work to prevent descending into generic 'fantasyland'. I've sold stories to magazines. I am a good, original writer. I have worked on characters to the point of lavishness, and my worlds.

But I could never have written to the level that I do at my relatively immature age, if I hadn't learnt the laws of writing through fanfiction. I began writing fanfiction when I was twelve. I've had a five year education in the conception of plot, character development, foreshadowing, humour and getting a feel for the 'pace' of writing.

Fanfiction has introduced friends of mine who were never 'writers' perse to the intricacies of grammar, because they have had interest sparked by books. As JK has done for reading, fanfiction is a similar story for writing. Yes, you have met a particularly bad example of the lower end of the slash genre. However, you have not seen a writer grow from a new, immature and faulty writer into someone who can wield words with confidence. I am loathe to suggest that you, someone who makes their way with words, would criticise a system that encourages development of talent, and better writing, but this is the conclusion I am drawing.

I am a slash writer, though not of the hideous concotions above. Writing slash has helped me, personally, to have a sensitivity toward relationships in my writing, and to go slowly in development. I have male friends who have been through 'coming out' and in reading what I've written, they've expressed feelings that they can see I understand, that I've treated an issue that can be intense to someone young with kid gloves.

I have used other writers' characters to explore canonical situations with added subtext and been able to express greater emotions through writing. Is my learning to write a bad thing?

Your main point seems to be 'write your own, invent your own characters'. Mine is this.

When writing your own characters, you have to have an awareness of -how- to do this. How to give distinct personalities to characters, how to develop them. Fanfiction -prevents- people from attempting to write original fiction with flat, two dimensional 'wish fufillment' characters. The VERY site you have so scathingly turned up on, and proceeded to slough on disdain for, is one such site that ..well, not -encourages-, but discourages flat characterisation, what we call 'Mary Sues'.

If working in the fantasy/magic genre, as I do, to create something worthwhile, you have to discover the way limits work. If you are working in a preconceived universe, you learn that there have to be limits on power in order to create adversity. If you're working in Tolkien - Jeez, you expect fifteen year olds who admire the great man to come up with their own world, and language, like say, a linguistics professor at Oxford?

Writing fanfiction means also that you are met with -harsh- critique. When people send off manuscripts, if they're lucky, they get an editor commenting, looking them over, pointing out grammar errors, poor human qualities and so on. Fanfiction similarly works like that. Someone in a fanfiction forum will have about ten people comment on things like, 'well, spelling, and grammar are wrong', and as you get into more developed fiction, characterisation.

We fans are incredibly protective of the characters. Unlike the example given, we try to keep within the 'canonical' bounds given us, ie, we will try and write with similar style, description, to that which is given us. If someone steps out of line, and writes Godawful Fiction - small hint - we are there to point it out, and also add comments like, 'Tolkien would turn in his grave if he saw you making 'x' do this'. We're not trying to take anything away from the original creator, we're in effect adding something.

Fanfiction is a living community. For some, it's just a teacher, before moving on to original writing. For others, it's a viable way of entertaining themselves, expressing themselves, and writing out ideas that were possibly not explored in canon. Sometimes, it's a method of working off writer's block.

For example - a good friend of mine. She's been writing three years. She's just sold a book to Random House. She's an -incredibly- popular fanfiction author, and writes because she enjoys the shows.

This has been a long-winded examination of some of the reasons for fanfiction. However, I felt it necessary. You are entitled, most certainly to your opinions on fanfiction. Anne Rice has expressed hers, as has Anne McCaffrey. Fanfiction can certainly be made illegal for certain books/shows/films, and can be addressed simply by a solictor's letter published, or shown, and thus clearing up your own sector of fanfiction.

But please - don't attack something that thrives, and is passing on a dying art. Grammar has been phased out of schools. Writing and reading has been replaced by television, sex and movies. Fanfiction might hold thousands of bored people who churn out revolting examples like those above. But it also contains dozens of the next generation of writers; who will have learnt to accept criticism, to address problems in their writing efficently, and to take on ideas and originality.

Don't dismiss us, Mr Goldberg. We're here, and we're settled. Your dissent is fine - we'll accept your opinion. But don't make undue assumptions, or cast aspersions on our own creativity. If you don't know what you're discussing - please refrain from comment.

[P M Rommel]

"There is a big difference between art and other products, like Oreo cookies and coca-cola... and c'mon, we BOTH know that."

Sorry, I don't see it. Perhaps a closer analogy would be legal advice, but it's still a product. Art - in this sense, a book or TV show - is packaged fantasy in the same way as Tesco sells biscuits, or Coca Cola, or cucumbers. Some of it is not only packaged, it's pre-chewed fantasy to the point almost of being the artistic equivalent of baby food. No wonder fans want to take it into their own hands and do something with it.

Like Tesco, the producer doesn't have any control over what use the buyer puts those products to. They can't tell the buyer she can't use the biscuits as very small frizbees, the cola as drain cleaner and the cucumber... well, perhaps we'd better not go there!

"TV shows are works of art (and I don't mean that as pretentiously as it sounds). You can't make products using TV shows (and their characters, logos, etc) without being licensed by the copyright holder." I've never met a fanfiction author who was trying to pass herself off as the copyright holder.

But this is a legal question, and (as far as I'm aware) it has yet to be tested in court. I wanted to find the web site where this is discussed, but unfortunately I seem to have lost the link - I'll post it if I find it again.

"We write and produce TV shows for people to VIEW... they aren't granted an implied license to re-use the program."

True, but nor do you have a right to control people's fantasy lives, or to prevent them telling their friends about them, however bizarre you may think them to be.

Before fanfiction was on the internet, it was to be found in fanzines - they've been around since the early 1970s. It's a bit late to turn the clock back on public and participatory creativity now.

"What you can't do is make a cookie and distribute it as an Oreo, which is a copyrighted brand name."

Which is why most fanfiction (and I really wonder how much of it you've read) has a disclaimer along the lines of, "I'm not (name of original creator) and I'm not making any money out of this," somewhere before you turn the page or click on to read.

As I said, I don't know how much you know about fanfic - but do, before you go very much further, obtain and read the book "Textual Poachers: Television Fans and Participatory Culture" by Henry Jenkins, ISBN 0-415-90572-9.

Published in 1992, it's a little dated now, but perhaps it may serve as an introduction to the world you've just managed to storm into with all guns blazing. The discussion you're having with the GAFFers has been going on since the 1970s, and despite the millions of words which have been written, there are no real legal precedents, fandom still exists, fanfiction is bigger than ever and the only people making any real money out of it are the fan artists. And I really wouldn't back your chances at winning the arguement if you wanted to stop people drawing pictures.

[David Montgomery]

Appropriating another person's ideas (call it plagiarism if you'd like) is wrong, regardless of whether or not you profit monetarily from it. (And anyone who fancies themselves an artist or even a creative person should realize this.)

A. Clouter mentions that she's 17, which leads me to believe she's a student. If you turned in a paper to your teacher in which you copied someone else's ideas, do you think s/he would approve of this practice? Why should fiction be different? Aren't you still ripping someone else off, no matter how many disclaimers you provide?

Although a person might have the "right" to fantasize about the characters they see on TV, they don't have the privilege of writing about those characters and disseminating that writing to others.

Why is this such a hard principle for people to understand?

Aside for the legal/ethical question, I also maintain that any writer, in any circumstance, would be better off creating their own characters, scenarios, etc.

It boggles my mind that anyone would want to waste their creative energies writing such derivative stories. Can anyone really be so obsessed with a television show?

[Jim Winter]

I know why people write fanfic. What I want to know is why you bother arguing with the producers and authors. I don't get that. I never sent Rick Berman anything I wrote. Why would I? I'm sure he either wouldn't like it or care one way or the other. The wise course of action would be to let it slide. He's got a point. You don't. And this comes from one who's been on both sides of the equation. Granted, no one's written fanfic based on my work, and if they did, I'd probably ignore it. It's fanfic. It's meaningless. Quit pretending otherwise.

You write fanfic for only one reason: Shits and giggles. (Or is that two reasons?) You get no prestige from it (and don't kid yourself. I won awards at it. You'll never see it in my Bouchercon bio or cover letters. They have less worth than your average blue ribbon in a peeing-for-distance contest) You're playing with someone else's toys (which, I might add, makes most, if not all, the attacks on Lee disingenuous), and in the end, it's wasted creativity. You can't sell it. There will be no critical studies of it. And no matter how original, it's always going to be in someone else's imagined universe, one in which you have no hand in creating or changing. NONE!

At best, if you're serious about writing, it's an excercise in learning dialogue, plotting, characterization, etc. Kind of hard to make that case when 90% of people who do it don't learn these things, opting instead to go for such idiotic cliches as the Mary Sue, hurt/comfort, and slash. That's not storytelling.

So if you are serious about writing and you're doing fanfic, ask yourself, "Am I learning anything from this excercise?" If you're not, you're wasting your time. If you are, then it's time to come up with something you can call your own.

And then if your lucky, someday YOU can either be tickled pink by knockoffs on your work like JMS or morally outraged like Lee. But neither sure as hell ain't going to happen while you're wasting hours upon hours banging out that LAW & ORDER story that brings Claire Kinkaid back from the dead.

So, am I kicked off DorothyL now without having subscribed?

[Lee Goldberg]

The Romantic Times magazine featured an article this month on fanfic, covering both sides of the debate, though largely favorable towards the practice. But they note:

//Writing fan fiction is a violation of copyright law. But many fanfic writers are either unaware of or unconcerned with this fact. Often they'll slap a short disclaimer at the top of the story, disavowing ownership of the characters used and consider the matter handled...

Attorney-turned-Romance author Julie Kenner says... "for our purposes as writers, copyright serves to protect our words. But when someone is using, say, Stephanie Plum in fan fictio, they probably aren't quoting any of Janet Evanovich's language and they think they are they're clear of infringement. But the 9th Circuit and the 2nd Circuit -- both leading courts with regard to intellectual property law -- have found protection for the characters themselves under certain judicially defined parameters."

And those little disclaimers? Ain't gonna hold water in front of a judge, Kenner says.

Published authors reactions to fan fiction vary....Laurell Hamilton, Anne Rice and Diana Gabaldon firmly believe this practice is both legally and morally repugnant and have, in some cases, hired attorneys to fight fan fiction sites with cease-and-desist actions.//

Author Meg Cabot who, by the way, doesn't mind fanfic, recounts an interesting anecdote:

//"Another reason I don't read fan fictions is because I know an author who, justifiably, freaked out when she read a fic where the writer had one of her characters get graphically and brutally raped. You could see how that would be disturbing and put you off writing anything for a while."//

Even authors who approve of fanfic have hesitations:

//Both Rowling and Cabot write for children, who sometimes don't fully understand the distinction between a published work and fan fiction -- especially if they stumble upon a sexually explicit fic or one that talks of Harry whispering sweet nothings in Ron's ear.//

To say nothing of the Harry and Ron "male birthing" stories...

[P M Rommel]

"If you turned in a paper to your teacher in which you copied someone else's ideas, do you think s/he would approve of this practice?"

It's not quite that simple (darn, I really wish I still had that link). As I understand it, ideas can't be copyrighted. You can write as many stories around the idea of 'boy meets girl' as you like, likewise 'boy meets boy'.

Names can be copyrighted and trademarked, but even then it's not as straightforward as you make it out - if I wrote a story about a good looking English spy and called him James Bond, the estate of the late Ian Fleming might well come after me. But if I wrote a story about an eighty-year-old cobbler called James Bond, they wouldn't have much of a case. If I wrote a story about an American detective called James Bond, people might be a bit suspicious, but how derivative it would be would depend on the plot.

Again, as I understand it (I am not a lawyer) copyright comes into the question the closer a derived work is to its original, and it's a matter which has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

"Although a person might have the "right" to fantasize about the characters they see on TV, they don't have the privilege of writing about those characters and disseminating that writing to others."

Given what I've outlined above, why not? The claim that the copyright holder would have against the writer would depend, as I understand it (in UK law) on proving (1) that the work was so derivative that, stripped of its disclaimer, the public might be fooled into believing it to be by the original creator, and (b) that he has thereby suffered a loss.

Now, if you're talking morally wrong, that's a different question entirely - and I'm not sure that it is morally suspect. There is an alternative view that it is morally suspect to prevent creativity, whatever form that takes. The modern business model surrounding creative work, after all, is not that old and one day will be gone.

[Lee Goldberg]

To A Clouter,

//I have used other writers' characters to explore canonical situations with added subtext and been able to express greater emotions through writing. Is my learning to write a bad thing?//

That's like saying you've filled in the colors on a "paint-by-the-numbers" Mona Lisa, so now you know how to paint. Give me a break. Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity. It teaches you to take the ideas of others rather than come up with something original of your own. It reinforces the notion among teenagers like yourself that plagiarism is okay...in fact, it's more than that, it's noble. Or, as you put it:

//Please don't attack something that thrives, and is passing on a dying art.//

A fanfic story where Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock have anal sex is an example of a dying art? Spare me.

[Coyote]

"The big difference between what I do... and what "fanfic" authors do.. is that I always work with the creative involvement and direct consent of the creators/owners of the characters. Nothing gets written without their approval and ultimate control."

Ex-fucking-xactly. What we write is not canon. We never claim that it's canon. Therefore, what you write is not fanfic because it's done to add to the canon. Which ours isn't. Are you grasping my point? We don't write what we think is the way it should have happened. We write what we think could have happened.

"I suspect your argument would be the big difference is money, that I get paid for my work and "fanfic" writers don't. It's a specious argument. Whether you get paid for "fanfic" or not, it's still an actual, and ethical, violation of the intellectual property rights of the creator/author of the TV show, movie or book."

Specius but true. We don't get paid - it wouldn't stand up in court. Copyright laws exist to to prevent someone getting the money you earned by your idea. Wherther or not it violates the _spirit_ of the law is up for debate, along with what that spirit is, but it doesn't violate the letter.
And what if the creator doesn't care or actively encourages it?

"Let me pose a question to you. If you create a character and a world... for a TV show or novel... wouldn't you agree that it's yours?"

No. To quote a friend - "When you write a story - it's not yours. The story belongs to itself. You have been granted the privilage of communicating it to the rest of the world. Don't abuse that."

"That you own what you've created?"

And this is where you and I seem to differ - I don't think I do. By the time it's been published, editors will have gotten their hands on it and it will no longer be my original creation. Then, afterwards, it belongs only partly to me - but mostly it belongs to the people who read/watch it and are caught up in it, who believe in it and love it. And to have a story of mine spark some sort of inspiration in another... I can think of no greater honor.

"That it should be your decision what the characters say or do and how they intereact with one another?"

No, it's not. I can't say it enough - the story owns itself. I am just a medium.

"Wouldn't you be offended and upset to see your characters used without your consent... doing and saying things you would never have them say or do?"

Depends on how extreme the deviation is. Perhaps someone'll find a way of looking at a character I'd never considered, and I'll be blown away by the insight. Perhaps I'll see the author's own fears shining through their portryal of a character and while I may not gain insight into the characters, I'll gain insight into the author and insight of any kind is valuable.

"Would you be flattered if two of your heterosexual, male characters are appropriated for a "male birthing" story?"

I would mostly be amused. It's anatomically impossible, after all, and ever so much fun to watch the MPreggers try to explain it away.

Let me put it this way - in my world, writers serve stories, and stories serve the human race. You seem to think the stories serve the writer.

[David Montgomery]

Rommel, you obviously missed Lee's post right above yours about the legality of fanfic. (You were probably posting at the same time.)

Although the individual expression of an idea can't be copyrighted, characters certainly are the sole province of their creators, and thus are legally protected. We're not talking about a "boy meets girl" story -- we're talking about "Buffy meets the Borg."

Slapping a disclaimer on a story changes nothing. You might as well not even bother.

[Charles Ellis]

"Another reason I don't read fan fictions is because I know an author who, justifiably, freaked out when she read a fic where the writer had one of her characters get graphically and brutally raped."

Well, I can understand that. I don't like those fics either. But let's face it- sick buggers exist, and they'd probably write this stuff even if there was less of a fanfiction scene.

As for the Rowling/kids not understading stuff- a lot of fanfiction sites are clearly marked as not being suitable for kids under a certain age because of that problem.

"Writing fan fiction is a violation of copyright law. But many fanfic writers are either unaware of or unconcerned with this fact."

And many copyright holders turn a blind eye to it. When copyright holders like Gainax, Squaresoft, Hasbro, Marvel, BBC, Paramount (at least over Star Trek), Donna Barr et al aren't bothered by it... well, then it's really hard to think it's an actual violation. If creators do find it a violation, then often sites (like Fanfiction.net) will take _down_ fics based on their work out of respect. This is more of a grey area legally than something set in stone.

There's also fan-art and fan-comics, from which professional writer/artists have emerged. Fan-art and fan-comics are in the same ballpark as fanfiction, I'd say.

Some of the comments I've been hearing round here also make it sound like it's legally dodgy for people on the Internet to discuss what they'd have prefered to have seen on a show.

[A Clouter]

//A. Clouter mentions that she's 17, which leads me to believe she's a student. If you turned in a paper to your teacher in which you copied someone else's ideas, do you think s/he would approve of this practice? Why should fiction be different? Aren't you still ripping someone else off, no matter how many disclaimers you provide?//

Entirely separate point. When you are writing fanfiction, you are not copying large chunks of text out of another's work! You're using it as a spinoff point, and using it to develop your own fiction. It's not about doing it for recognition, fame, fortune, and whatever - it's about amusing yourself and developing as a writer.

And my teacher, hmm... I think his argument, and just to put it into context for you, Cambridge, graduate with a first -

'In Dante's Inferno, large sections of the Aeneid, translated from Virgil were lifted from the text, and inserted. Virgil himself was added, as well as Dante. This was not considered plagarism, but a compliment to the writer..'

Rather an extreme case, and of course, in this age of legalities, plagarism is the first thing that springs to mind.

As to the fanfiction argument - Jim Winter, I completely agree - But then I'm a writer that learns from experience. The stories I write now are developed, thought out, and I actually research them - for example, JK Rowling (whose books are becoming decidedly darker, and yet more artificial as she attempts to write young adult characters in a children's book) I use the 'shipped relationship, Sirius/Remus, and did a lot of research on the sixties and seventies, prejudice and law and so forth. I don't see that excercise as anything but progressive for my writing. I learnt about an issue, explored it, moved on.

But I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, Anne Rice and co have made their point. They see the law as protecting their work, and have employed solictors who will 'attack' - note the inverted commas, I'm being slightly ironic here, just thought I'd point this out as we're rapidly approaching the typical, fanfiction newbie author argument session on GAFF *sigh* and my words will be twisted - But the point stands. If you look at fanfiction.net, it has a hefty disclaimer. If it were illegal, it would be shut down by the service provider.

For example, the writers who go into Mary Sue, hurt/comfort and slash (separate point there, it's home ground) are also developing. I wrote Mary Sues and so forth when I was starting out. Fanfiction means they're heartily shoved by readers into writing -better- fiction. Some will stay at that point before getting bored, others will move on.

Slash - separate category, gentlemen. I'm not about to go into my own personal standpoint on slash - suffice to say, some people are those who will go far down the line, and ignore canon, others will attempt to develop from canon. I'm one of the latter.

If you want fanfiction to stop, there are a number of ways.

1) Continue insulting fanfiction writers. Of -course- they're about to nod, smile, scrape and bow before the 'published author' who dictates to them. It's not like -any- of them are published themselves..*sigh* Not like I gave examples, or anything.. And yes, I'm being drawn down into sarcasm.

2) Take action - ie, email the fanfiction boards. Then your work will be free from nasty people daring to find it a creative startpoint to develop themselves.

3) Destroy your fanbase - then you won't -have- anyone to write fanfiction on it.

And yes, I'm more than a little annoyed now. If someone could just address the points made in my post, then I'd be far happier in this rather one-sided debate.

But you're coming off a wee bit arrogant. By all means, defend other authors from fanfiction, in your own mind, but don't take on their battles. JK Rowling has her own website in which, funnily enough, she awards -prizes- to fansites. She's commented on fanfiction before, supports it in fact. Joss Whedon loved fanfiction on the Buffy/Angel shows. Therefore, when you're defending your own standpoint, you're fine and dandy on your own ground. But try and encompass other areas - and you'll find yourself meeting resistence. Anne Rice and McCaffrey have supported you. Yes. The others haven't, so don't presume on their opinion. We have to fact check our way through canon to write fanfiction - no reason why you can't fact-check your argument.

[Coyote]

Forgot...

"So if you are serious about writing and you're doing fanfic, ask yourself, "Am I learning anything from this excercise?" If you're not, you're wasting your time. If you are, then it's time to come up with something you can call your own."

"Give me a break. Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity."

You're missing the damn point. Fanfiction is FUN. It's a HOBBY. You do know what a hobby is, right?

My more esoteric side also wishes to add that real fanfic should be nothing more or less then an expression of pure love for the source story - saying "I wish to know you better, I wish to get closer to you by exploring the boundries of the world."

"It teaches you to take the ideas of others rather than come up with something original of your own."

Oh, yes, because there's not such thing as archetypes and Joseph Campblee was just a crazy old man.

[Charles Ellis]

"Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity. It teaches you to take the ideas of others rather than come up with something original of your own."

That's inaccurate. To quote Stephen King, you learn to write by writing a lot. Writing fanfiction is writing, even if you don't like what's being written. If you're putting the effort in, you can improve basic writing skills by practise (description, setting the story, gramma, etc etc). You can learn how to write something interesting within an existing framework (setting, characters, time etc) which YOU had to know for writing parts of Diagnostic Murder (and a useful skill to know if setting stuff in, say, the past). You can improve how you handle characters, your plotting, etc etc...

And the Mona Lisa analogy is a flawed one. That involves copying _the entire painting_; in fanfiction, that would mean a Star Trek fanfic is directly copying an entire episode. That's not what happens. An old Trek fic of legend was about what the Redshirts do when they're not being killed in the first five minutes, which was NEVER shown on Star Trek before.

"A fanfic story where Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock have anal sex is an example of a dying art?"

Strawman argument. Not every Star Trek fic is Kirk/Spock sex. Not even the majority are Kirk/Spock sex (unless you go on really weird sites).

[David Montgomery]

"You're using [fanfic] as a spinoff point, and using it to develop your own fiction. It's not about doing it for recognition, fame, fortune, and whatever - it's about amusing yourself and developing as a writer."

The lie of this is proved by the "author" publishing it on the 'net. If it's not about "recognition or whatever" then leave it on your hard drive.

Plagiarism isn't simply "copying large chunks of text out of another's work." It is stealing another's ideas and using them as if they were your own.

(As a former college professor who saw this all too often, I can state with certainty that this is a concept of which far too many people are ignorant.)

To paraphrase Truman Capote...Fanfic isn't writing, it's merely typing.

Are we going in circles yet? :)

[A Clouter]

//To A Clouter,

//I have used other writers' characters to explore canonical situations with added subtext and been able to express greater emotions through writing. Is my learning to write a bad thing?//

That's like saying you've filled in the colors on a "paint-by-the-numbers" Mona Lisa, so now you know how to paint. Give me a break. Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity. It teaches you to take the ideas of others rather than come up with something original of your own. It reinforces the notion among teenagers like yourself that plagiarism is okay...in fact, it's more than that, it's noble. Or, as you put it:

//Please don't attack something that thrives, and is passing on a dying art.//

A fanfic story where Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock have anal sex is an example of a dying art? Spare me.

Posted by: Lee Goldberg | October//

I missed this. Believe me, I have more than enough of an answer.

//Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity//

No, it doesn't. It's practise for original writing. It's also a hobby. If you want to state this as blind fact - google 'beta reader'. And find a whole host of picky editors who demand grammar, spelling, and characterisation to be spot on. Who will make you re-check and re-check. Then tell me I'm being 'lazy'. Please STOP making generalisations based on the one piece of awful writing you've read. Until you have read a decent amount - and from your comments on articles and so forth, you haven't - you are not entitled to judge it. You are uninformed. I wouldn't -presume- to comment on how 'lazy' you might be as a writer due to you writing tie ins rather than the next great novel of the 21st century, until I'd understood a little bit more about it. Have some courtesy, mm'kay?

//teaches you to take the ideas of others rather than come up with something original of your own...//

Again, wrong. You're repeating yourself, sir. What fanfiction does is use the original as a -basis- for further exploration. It allows you to become familar with the medium of writing before you develop your own original writings. When you are learning to write fantasy, for example, having established characters to work with allows you to strengthen how you -deal- with characterisation, ie, allows you to learn how to use motifs in characterisation, how to make characters recognisable, how to look at speech patterns and so forth. Of course, I'm assuming that these things, that make up decent writing, are of course, important.

//It reinforces the notion among teenagers like yourself that plagiarism is okay...in fact, it's more than that, it's noble//

Plagarism - not okay. Plagarism - and look, I'm using the Oxford English dictionary, where words come from - 'to take and use the thoughts, inventions of another person as one's own. pass off the thoughts of another as one's own'.

And it's there, I believe, your legal definition falls through. Because fanfiction is NOT plagarism. It's not attempting to pass original fiction off as 'one's own'. It acknowledges the original basis, makes no profit from it, and certainly, in its very DEFINITION, declares its intentions. Which is not, sir, plagarism.

Furthermore, using this basis as a way to teach writing - yeah, THAT's okay. Because writing needs to be taught. It gives pleasure to both reader and writer, and oh yeah - don't you make a career from being a developed writer? Don't you need some basis of skills and knowledge of that which makes up a story to be a writer?

////Please don't attack something that thrives, and is passing on a dying art.//

A fanfic story where Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock have anal sex is an example of a dying art? Spare me.

//

Being deliberately provocative, Mr Goldberg, is a tactic I recognise. I'm not familar with the Star Trek fandom, so let me offer this in contrast.

Harry Potter - where the life of Harry is written were he to take Draco Malfoy's hand in Madam Malkin's, and a convincing, well-worked and well-written, in good prose, story in which the motivations of characters are examined, and the circumstances have to remain clear?

Or, how about this? A poem written in the same stylistic tradition as Tolkien's example of the Elves, written in painstaking Quenya as befits the stylistic 'age' of the poem, on the same thematic ideas as the Elves would follow?

That, I consider an art. That, I consider a tribute to the original artist, and also a way of developing that dying art. Anal sex between two characters, taken out of context and thrown aside in some attempt to make a disparaging repost, no. But then, you -did- take my quotation out of context.

[Charles Ellis]

"Plagiarism isn't simply "copying large chunks of text out of another's work." It is stealing another's ideas and using them as if they were your own."

But fanfic writers aren't claiming "these are all my ideas", they aren't trying to make any profit out of what they've done, and will sometimes use these ideas as spin-offs for things the official material never had time to deal with (see the Redshirts fic mentioned in the last post). Technically yes, this is plagiarism, but I'd argue it's not damaging in any way (I'm excluding really vile things like the aforementioned graphic rape fanfictions).

"To paraphrase Truman Capote...Fanfic isn't writing, it's merely typing."

Again, I disagree, see last post.

"Are we going in circles yet? :)"

Y'know, we should probably agree to disagree and team up to go after our mutual enemy- The Judean People's Front! And the mpreg writers. We'll attack with the rage of pissed-off fans, you can hit them with the destructive force of Legalness. ;)

[David Montgomery]

I admire the passion that so many fanfic writers have for their efforts. I would be less than honest, though, if I didn't say I am dismayed to see that it is passion in support of something that seems unworthy.

As a professional reviewer (and someone who makes his living writing), I admire writing of nearly every sort. But this just doesn't qualify.

I would have much greater respect for these would-be writers were they to create their own material. I also think they would be so much better off.

Please, folks, give it a try. I think ultimately you will be much happier, more satisfied and eventually rewarded.

[Charles RB]

"I admire the passion that so many fanfic writers have for their efforts. I would be less than honest, though, if I didn't say I am dismayed to see that it is passion in support of something that seems unworthy."

We've reached the 'agree to disagree' state, it seems. Well, seeing it as unworthy is your right and all.

On the original works- well, writing original works is always preferable to fanfiction, unless said works are crap. No argument on that. Doesn't stop me enjoying a good fic though (i.e. not bloody mpreg).

[Jim Winter]

Dave Montgomery writes:

"Please, folks, give [creating original work] a try. I think ultimately you will be much happier, more satisfied and eventually rewarded."

I can wholeheartedly vouch for what David has said. I ditched fanfic back in 2001 (Well, maybe a little later, but the days were numbered in '01), and I've never been happier.

[A Clouter]

The sheer facetiousness of that remark is staggering. As you feel the need to qualify every statement with your profession, I shall do the same. I -write- original. I find it satisfying. But being frankly derogatory about something which aids better writing, and helps people TO move on to original is ridiculous.

First of all, your argument is woolly. Second of all, you refuse to address the points made by your opposition - a serious flaw in your rebuttal. Thirdly, by patronising said writers, your ignorance shows. I may be 17. I know better fanfiction writers who are 40+. Learn a little more about that which you criticise, or please, stop attempting to condescend to me.

[P M Rommel]

"I would have much greater respect for these would-be writers were they to create their own material. I also think they would be so much better off."

I would have a great deal more respect for you and for Lee himself if you would stop leaping to these conclusions. Several people have said or implied that they write both fanfiction -and- original work. I do myself. To imagine that the original work has some inherent worth not shared by the fanfiction...I don't see it. Other than the fact that that the original work can be sold, I don't see it.

[Lee Goldberg]

//As I said, I don't know how much you know about fanfic - but do, before you go very much further, obtain and read the book "Textual Poachers: Television Fans and Participatory Culture" by Henry Jenkins, ISBN 0-415-90572-9. //

Actually, not only have I read the book -- I own it. I just re-painted my office, so all my reference books are boxed up. It would be interesting to browse through that book again in light of this discussion.

[Lee Goldberg]

A Clouter,

//When you are writing fanfiction, you are not copying large chunks of text out of another's work! You're using it as a spinoff point, and using it to develop your own fiction.//

You're doing something far worse... you are taking their chacacters, their plots, and their settings. It's more than just taking an exact passage. Do you know how much thought and creativity and sweat goes into creating characters? When you are taking a writers characters, you are taking EVERYTHING.

I wrote "Fanfic doesn't teach writing. It teaches laziness and stupidity"

You replied:

//No, it doesn't. It's practise for original writing.//

I love that! To me, it says everything you need to know about the people who "write," and I use that term loosely, fanfic... and it perfectly sums up the idiotic rationale behind what they do...and proves most of my points far better than anything I've said in this debate so far.

But beyond that...

You need PRACTICE to be original??

[Coyote]

"You need PRACTICE to be original??"

Strawman, strawman, come and see the strawman!

Actually, yes. It's damn hard to do something that someone, somewhere, hasn't done before. It's even harder to do it well. Fanfiction helps you get a grasp of basic characterization and plot structure as well as the technical aspects of writing. And beyond that - IT'S A FUCKING HOBBBY. OF COURSE IT'S A WASTE OF TIME. GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

And since you need to qualify everything you say with how you're an original writer - I do write original fiction. I've yet to work up the courage to submit anything but I have done it. In fact, many fanfic writers aspire to be published or are published, as you would know if you pulled your head out of your ass and did some goddamn research.